[The Shad]

Sonic 2 is probably my least favorite, tying with Sonic CD out of the originals. Just never spent as much time with, never felt the urge to. Game starts to drag at Oil Ocean (if not before) for me. I can't really explain it, it just does. Sonic 2 Heroes makes the game so much more enjoyable for me.

[PsuitablePseudonym]

EDIT: ogod long post

Aaand now I know what Sonic 2 Heroes is. That is really nifty, I wasn't aware that Sonic romhacking was so hardcore. Plays awesomely, too.

Whew, lots of food for thought from everyone here!

Rokkan, on 07 December 2011 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't agree with you. You say that there are clear distinctions of which path you're in when playing Sonic 1, but not in Sonic 2. Have you ever played Aquatic Ruin? Higher path, middle path and lower path all pace completely different than each other. Casino Night then? Playing Casino Night well means going through lots of slopes and sometimes flying through big chunks of the stage. Playing it not well means being constantly waiting to advance the stage in elevators and on "launcher springs".

Sure, some stages feel samey and doesn't have many alternate paths in Sonic 2, but also slow stages on Sonic 1 (Labyrinth, Marble) also have this (although I believe for different reasons).

Aquatic Ruin:
There's definitely a separation between top/middle and bottom, but I don't know if I agree with top and middle being totally differently paced. This is moreso true in act 2 than in act 1. In act 1, the middle path seems a little more platformy than the uppermost path; I don't think this is a distinction you see in act 2.

Casino Night:
I was skeptical at first, but after playing through with your comments in mind, I see that you definitely have a point. It seems like the uppermost path is a good deal shorter. I think you might also be able to say that the giant blue blocks get more annoying the farther down in a stage you are?
It also strikes me as interesting that you're forced to "fail" two pinball tables in a row right at the end of act 2.

I'm also starting to get a grip on Hill Top. It's got a few segments where the top and bottom paths parallel pretty obnoxiously. For instance, there's this part of act 2, where the sequence of vine lifts from the top is copy+pasted into the bottom path, only the bottom path has more rings and more enemies.

Starting with Mystic Cave, things get a little too complex for me to follow. Maybe it's at this point where paths truly get samey, or maybe I just need to spend more time with these later zones. Given what you've said, I suspect it's the latter.

As for Marble and Labyrinth:
I think the distinction between paths in these zones is well set. The main path is always slow, and if you're lucky, you'll come across a secret path which is actually a lot faster—the most notable of these being the shortcut at the start of Scrap Brain act 3.

These zones also restrict the number of paths to serve as a foil to Green Hill and Starlight. You can zoom through Green Hill and Starlight for two reasons.

First, there are few obstacles that slow you down. On the other hand, Marble has blocks to push/ride and Labyrinth has water that slows you down.

Second, Green Hill and Starlight let you flow to whatever path you choose. You're frequently given the option to move from path to path. If you take the top path and fall, that's fine; you won't be slowed down by a death, you'll just find yourself on a lower path.

The lack of paths in Marble and Labyrinth fits in with their lack of speed. You can't switch paths: you can only deal with the obstacles directly in your way. As a side note, this kind of design makes their hidden paths all the more satisfying, since they offer choice and speed in zones that otherwise have neither.

I never really get the feeling that I don't have an option in Sonic 2, nor do I feel like a certain zone is particularly slow (at least, to Sonic 1's extent). Rather, sometimes I get the feeling that all my options are the same.

Jeez! That was a mouthful.

Metal Man88 said:

Sonic 2 sort of allows the player to pick a favorite path and with practice, stick to it.

Sonic 1 makes a very strict distinction about paths, with many of them being different difficulties.

S3K feels more linear and other paths seem to just be diversions.

Sonic 2 is actually fairly deadly. S3K is more relaxing because it takes until the second zone to really start dispensing lethality, while Emerald Hill has a few well hidden pits and nastiness in it...

Come to think of it, I like your reading of the Sonic series, although I have to give Sonic 3 & Knuckles a serious look before I know for sure. Actually, this should be helpful, giving me something to think about while replaying it...

jenniferdarknight said:

Though I do have to disagree with it being one of the more 'relaxing' Genesis titles; Sonic 3 and Knuckles wins that award for me. While it might be more flowing than Sonic 1, and certainly easier, Sonic 2 still could trip you up and be truly deadly (hello, Mystic Cave and Wing Fortress!)--much more so than Sonic 3 or Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

Yeah, this is something I glossed over. Sonic 2 has really awkward difficulty spikes, while Sonic 3 & Knuckles is definitely more evened out in its difficulty. Plus, if you can avoid the water in Hydrocity and deal with the time-based traps in Sandopolis act 2, I'd guess that it doesn't really get hard until Lava Reef.

This post has been edited by PsuitablePseudonym: 08 December 2011 - 06:28 AM

[jenniferdarknight]

PsuitablePseudonym, on 08 December 2011 - 06:19 AM, said:

Yeah, this is something I glossed over. Sonic 2 has really awkward difficulty spikes, while Sonic 3 & Knuckles is definitely more evened out in its difficulty. Plus, if you can avoid the water in Hydrocity and deal with the time-based traps in Sandopolis act 2, I'd guess that it doesn't really get hard until Lava Reef.

I'm sort of weird...other than the crushing wall at the beginning of Act 2 in Hydrocity, I'd never had much trouble with that place. My best friend was the polar opposite; she had lots of trouble playing Hydrocity to the point where she couldn't see further in the game because she could never pass it.

Lava Reef Act 2, I'd have to say.

...Well, okay, those stupid gas things are *REALLY* aggravating, and made me annoyed when I saw pipes of any kind for a while. But it's Act 2 when the level gets frustrating, and sets the stage for Sky Sanctuary and the boss fights that follow.

Though the spikes are awkward, I like it more, to be honest. It forces the player to keep on their toes. Outside of one or two levels (and a few scattered incidents) in S3&K, I've found that the average player can just gloss through without much thought, and that can make the game boring after a while

[Frodo T. Baggins]

jenniferdarknight, on 07 December 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

Sonic 2 actually has a really strong resonance with me; not only was it the first real Sonic game I'd ever played (I don't count the first Sonic—I'd watched my big sister play it back then and even then I didn't really play it until later on down the line), but it was also the game that got me into video games in general. I'd usually play it with my older sister in the two-player modes, or play as Tails when I had a chance to snag the Genesis long enough to play it. The gameplay was flowing and intuitive, the level design was easy to understand (but with enough paths to keep variety), though the Emerald Stages can go die in the flames from whence they came. I sort of wish that Metropolis Zone was remade for Sonic Generations rather than Chemical Plant, though, but that's just because that stage is hands down my absolute favorite in just about any Sonic game (I think Sky Sanctuary and Lava Reef from S3&K just barely beat it).

Heck, I still spend hours playing it to this day, and I bought a Type-2 Genesis earlier this year just to be able to play the game again (now if only I could find a Sega CD that works...).

Though I do have to disagree with it being one of the more 'relaxing' Genesis titles; Sonic 3 and Knuckles wins that award for me. While it might be more flowing than Sonic 1, and certainly easier, Sonic 2 still could trip you up and be truly deadly (hello, Mystic Cave and Wing Fortress!)--much more so than Sonic 3 or Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

And on the Spindash question? You don't really HAVE to spindash anywhere. I actually hate using the thing in Metropolis since it usually ends up doing me more harm than good...I just use it to regain momentum if I mess up somewhere (which is often on a bad day).

Mystic Cave scared the shit out of me when I was a kid. That level always gave me a hard time, and the badniks popping out of nowhere scared me, even though I'd memorized their locations. Yeah, Sonic 2 is the one I played the least out of them when I was a kid.

Today? I love the game, and I roll through Mystic Cave like nobody's business.

Sonic 2 just generally makes me happy.

[Kampfer]

Frodo T. Baggins, on 09 December 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

Mystic Cave scared the shit out of me when I was a kid. That level always gave me a hard time, and the badniks popping out of nowhere scared me, even though I'd memorized their locations. Yeah, Sonic 2 is the one I played the least out of them when I was a kid.

Today? I love the game, and I roll through Mystic Cave like nobody's business.

Sonic 2 just generally makes me happy.

I know, right? The Mystic Cave boss was the source of so many game overs when I was a kid. Die at the boss? Fuck you, no more rings! You better hope those sharp rocks don't land on your head. Easy now, but when I was 8 or younger, I had to be sure to beat Robotnik the first try.

[jenniferdarknight]

Kampfer, on 09 December 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

Frodo T. Baggins, on 09 December 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

Mystic Cave scared the shit out of me when I was a kid. That level always gave me a hard time, and the badniks popping out of nowhere scared me, even though I'd memorized their locations. Yeah, Sonic 2 is the one I played the least out of them when I was a kid.

Today? I love the game, and I roll through Mystic Cave like nobody's business.

Sonic 2 just generally makes me happy.

I know, right? The Mystic Cave boss was the source of so many game overs when I was a kid. Die at the boss? Fuck you, no more rings! You better hope those sharp rocks don't land on your head. Easy now, but when I was 8 or younger, I had to be sure to beat Robotnik the first try.

Haha, I remember when I used to play Mystic Cave on two-player mode with my sister; I died so much that I always lost on that stage, even though I could almost always win on the other stages (especially Casino Night)...when I grew older, it became one of my favorite stages, but I still get tripped up on it from time to time (stupid firefly things and missing switches...). I never had problems with the boss, though...at least, he didn't give me as many problems as, say, the Metropolis or Oil Ocean bosses did.

Agh, Metropolis...why is that my favorite stage again? ><

[Iapetus]

jenniferdarknight, on 09 December 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

Agh, Metropolis...why is that my favorite stage again? ><

Because what isn't satisfying about conquering something that used to give you trouble when you were younger?

I'd like to applaud PsuitablePseudonym for starting this topic as I believe it deserves to be discussed further. What is it that makes Sonic 2... Well, Sonic 2? We all know that Sonic 2-ness when we play it, we can distinguish it from other Sonic games as a result. But how do we pinpoint it?

I don't have a lot to contribute to this topic, other than I like it. The levels feel short yet in-depth, a striking contrast to S3/SK's seemingly overly-long levels. And unlike later games, it doesn't feel like you are on a track that can't be changed - you can always jump off or sometimes go back to where the road branches off. Sonic 2 is a blast to play to completion, but the real joy occurs when you go off your usual beaten path and find unusual pockets or paths that you didn't know existed.

Anyway, my 0.02.

[Frodo T. Baggins]

I dunno how anyone could dislike Sonic 2.

When IGN does those "greatest 100 video games of all time forever eternally for the year 20xx" every two months or so (because what could be more original than a list??), I'm always sad to not see STH 2 near the top.

The game's elite.

[KingofHarts]

Do you actually take IGN seriously?

[Frodo T. Baggins]

Absolutely not.

Just saying, they put out about seven of those lists a year, and I don't think Sonic games ever break the top 20.

[Sodaholic]

Does anyone agree with me about Sonic 2's art direction? (in that you agree they tried to make it sleeker and more serious)

[jenniferdarknight]

Sodaholic, on 10 December 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

Does anyone agree with me about Sonic 2's art direction? (in that you agree they tried to make it sleeker and more serious)

Sleeker, maybe, but serious? I guess the levels were less openly exaggerated than Sonic 1, but in terms of level design, music, hazards and even Sonic's sprite design? Sonic 1, to me, was the more 'serious' game, and I think it was intentionally 'serious', rather than Sonic 2. Sonic 2 felt a lot more cartoony and childish, with the less foreboding obstacles, the bouncing, happier music (Sonic 2's Robotnik theme versus Sonic 1's Robotnik theme? Sonic 2 felt MUCH less threatening. Or what about Green Hill Zone versus Emerald Hill Zone? Or Hill Top Zone versus Marble Zone? I think the only Sonic 1 tune that didn't feel more 'mature' to me was Labyrinth Zone.), and the overall atmosphere of the game felt more bright and colorful.

Sonic 1, maybe because of my own experiences with it, felt like the more 'serious' game in terms of its art direction and atmosphere. Sonic 2 felt more friendly and approachable when you picked the thing up, and I think that's what they were trying to do.

...BUT!


When we get to the ending levels, then yes, they were trying for a more serious tone, not just in colors and music, but also in level design. Wing Fortress and the Death Egg zones, on top of the Midi rendition of Dream Come True's "Sweet Dream" as you're falling to the ground—the way they put it together almost felt out of place against the rest of the game. But compare that to Sonic 1's ending levels? Yeah. Sonic 2 IS more serious in terms of art direction.

...

TL:DR:

Overall: Sonic 1 is more serious in art direction.

Last few levels?: Sonic 2 is the more serious game.

...

Why can't I ever give straight 'yes' or 'no' answers?

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I can't go in to that much depth about how the game plays, it's just a whole lot easier to go and play it. To sum it up- Sonic 2 often feels more tactical with enemy placement, and it's obvious that they would have preferred the player to play with someone else being Tails. The game itself is made to generally there's an 'easy' path through a majority of the levels, but taking he longer more winding ruotes is more resourceful.

Sonic 1 is quite paced due to the lack of spin-dash, but overall the two games don't play that differently overall.

Sonic 3 just expands on the tactical elements of Sonic 2 by throwing in different abilities and larger levels.

[KingofHarts]

If we are talking art styles... Sonic 1 was the most serious... Sonic 2 was on the opposite end of that spectrum... especially if you take a look at some of the other art that was supposed to be included, but got scrapped. Sonic 2 was meant to be a little bit more cartoonish than the first.

[Vaiz]

PsuitablePseudonym, on 08 December 2011 - 06:19 AM, said:

I wasn't aware that Sonic romhacking was so hardcore. Plays awesomely, too.

Welcome to Sonic Retro, mate. Shit gets preeeeeetty hardcore here. I don't understand how half of it works, but we have some pretty amazing techies.

Anyway, Sonic 2 never really clicked with me. Maybe it's because I'm a wuss and I need a save function to be interested in a game, because I tend to play games in extremely sporadic, hyperactive doses, but I could never get into it. Something about it always felt really weird to me. Not my least favorite classic game in the slightest (that honor goes to numero uno), but it's down there.