[PsuitablePseudonym]

Over the past few days, I've been trying to suss out each path of Sonic 2 and really nail down what each zone is about. I've been using Zone: 0 to make sure I don't miss anything. I figured I'd ask for Sonic Retro's opinions on my thoughts, since you guys know your Sonic.

The thing is, I've been having some trouble, even with help. Sometimes, I'll find paths that I don't think I've seen before, but I'm never certain. (As of 2011, I've spent ten years with Sonic 2.)

A friend suggested that I think of it this way: In Sonic 1, paths are more important than gimmicks, while in Sonic 2, gimmicks are more important than paths. (Gimmicks being elements specific to a zone: a gimmick would be a type of badnik or a zone-specific obstacle, such as the giant moving crates in Mystic Cave.)

Anyway, in Sonic 2, each zone has distinct gimmicks: Chemical Plant has speedy transport tubes and disappearing bridges, Casino Night has giant, elaborate pinball tables, and so on and so forth. However, within each zone, those gimmicks rarely create distinct passages. Each tube in Chemical Plant feels like the last, and each pinball table in Casino Night feels like I've seen it before.

(There's at least one exception I can name: the rising water segment of Chemical Plant Zone.)

For whatever reason, Sonic 2 doesn't get a whole lot of mileage out of its gimmicks. Maybe the gimmicks themselves are so simple that they don't provide a wide variety of uses. Or perhaps the level designers didn't want to use the gimmicks in a variety of ways.

So, after a single playthrough of any one zone in Sonic 2, I feel like I've seen everything the zone has to offer and I haven't seen the half of it.

On one hand, after a single playthrough of a zone, I've probably seen each gimmick used several times. On the other hand, I also probably can't name too many distinct scenarios created with them—and I certainly haven't seen every instance of the gimmick in the zone.

I want to say that this sensation is made possible by Sonic 2's lax sense of paths. Sonic 1 had very specific uses for each of its paths. For instance, in Green Hill Zone, the farther you strayed from the middle path, the more platformy the gameplay got.

Sonic 2 doesn't have that, instead creating more generic paths. You can freely flow from one place in the stage to another, and for the most part, it won't matter. In addition, because there are so many paths, you are less likely to memorize a certain act. Maybe you've been along one path, maybe you haven't. It's a lot more free-form than a single-path obstacle course.

(There's at least one exception I can name: the underwater paths of Aquatic Ruin are certainly different from those above the surface. On the other hand, the higher paths intertwine and change places so much in Aquatic Ruin that I think they are interchangeable in and of themselves.)

In the end, this makes Sonic 2 a much more relaxing experience than Sonic 1, and I think it accounts for why it's been my favorite of the Genesis titles.

Anyway—thoughts? I'm still very uncertain about all of this, so I'd appreciate hearing others' takes on Sonic 2.

This post has been edited by PsuitablePseudonym: 06 December 2011 - 06:59 PM

[The Growler]

When you say " I've been using Zone: 0 to make sure I don't miss anything." and "Each tube in Chemical Plant feels like the last, and each pinball table in Casino Night feels like I've seen it before.", are you wanting the maps for Sonic 2 to see where everything is?

I would've directed you to Sonic Retro's map levels, but most of the thumbnails don't work; so I'll post another link that does work instead: http://qntm.org/maps


Anyway, while I suppose I agree with you for the most part, I certainly wouldn't call Metropolis Zone a "relaxing experience"!

[PsuitablePseudonym]

Er, that's my bad! Zone: 0 is a site that I've been using for maps of each act, and it's been especially helpful since it explicitly lays out each route in each act.

This post has been edited by PsuitablePseudonym: 06 December 2011 - 07:28 PM

[Sodaholic]

Sonic 2 is my least favorite out of the original games. I certainly like the many enhancements and changes made to the overall game design concept, but everything else kinda sucked. The levels were bland with linear and boring layouts, the art seemed too realistic and serious, there were collision bugs galore (seriously, ARZ has the shittiest collision in any Sonic game, I'm getting stuck in random spots all the time), and the gimmicks were too repetitive and not used in interesting ways.

That, and I absolutely hated Sonic's sprites in Sonic 2. The walking animation was ugly as shit, the new animations besides the walking were drawn pretty sloppily, and despite improving Sonic's hue of blue, they utterly ruined the contrast, and as a result, Sonic 2's new sprites look awful with a higher contrast palette (for fuck's sake, they used the darkest shade of blue on his forehead instead of the lightest in some sprites, but you don't notice it due to the low contrast palette). Tails looked good though.

I actually liked the more Sonic 1-feeling direction they were taking 2 in back in the Wai beta days, but their sleeker redesign of the whole game's feel at some point in development ruined the game for me. Sonic 3 did a much better job at this faster take on the gameplay, and was a much better game overall.

Despite all my bitching, that's not to say I don't like Sonic 2, I do, it's not a terrible game, but it just doesn't hold up as a whole to the rest of the games.

[DDCWGD]

PsuitablePseudonym, on 06 December 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

For whatever reason, Sonic 2 doesn't get a whole lot of mileage out of its gimmicks. Maybe the gimmicks themselves are so simple that they don't provide a wide variety of uses. Or perhaps the level designers didn't want to use the gimmicks in a variety of ways.

I wouldn't say that each level focused on a gimmick, but rather that the gimmick reinforced the theme of the level. It's just that some gimmicks, like the slot machines, don't lend itself toward the speed aspect of the game. The gimmicks seem to me to not have a whole lot of thought to their design to allow for fluidity in movement. Looking at the Mystic Cave Zone, there are pits and switches that open them, such that can be associated with actual caverns. However, the switches that you have to hold onto while a gate lowers stops the speed you've gained and forces you to recover it through more running or a spin dash, while say, Sonic 3's Icecap Zone has switches that you quickly jump on, and a fall that helps build momentum after the wait for the gate to open.

It was a fair effort, but like Sodaholic said, they were being too realistic in their gimmick design instead of tweaking them to reinforce the overall speed of the game. Especially since this game put all of its emphasis on the speed rather than the platforming of the game.

It's still a fantastic game, but I still think that Sonic 3 & Knuckles mixed the speed with platforming better.

[Sparks]

Sodaholic, on 06 December 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

the art seemed too realistic and serious

The art in Sonic 2 is one of the last things I view as realistic and serious.

[Sodaholic]

Sparks, on 06 December 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

Sodaholic, on 06 December 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

the art seemed too realistic and serious

The art in Sonic 2 is one of the last things I view as realistic and serious.

Okay, yeah, no Sonic game is very serious or realistic, but I'm talking relatively here.

Compare it to the trippy and surreal art in Sonic CD. Even Sonic 3 took more of an unreal and colorful approach than Sonic 2 did. Sonic 2's by comparison is less colorful, and has a more "down to earth" feel to the environments. Compare Aquatic Ruin Zone and Mystic Cave Zone to Marble Garden Zone and Quartz Quadrant. Also, compare the stylistic change of Sonic's sprites (and just the overall game feel) between the Wai Beta and the final. They really were going for a more sleek, serious appearance in the final version, rather than the surreal, colorful, and slightly more cartoony approach the other games took.

This post has been edited by Sodaholic: 06 December 2011 - 11:41 PM

[steveswede]

PsuitablePseudonym, on 06 December 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

A friend suggested that I think of it this way: In Sonic 1, paths are more important than gimmicks, while in Sonic 2, gimmicks are more important than paths. (Gimmicks being elements specific to a zone: a gimmick would be a type of badnik or a zone-specific obstacle, such as the giant moving crates in Mystic Cave.)

Honestly your friend must not have played Scrap Brain Zone. I can't think of any zone that has as many as that one.

[Rokkan]

I don't agree with you. You say that there are clear distinctions of which path you're in when playing Sonic 1, but not in Sonic 2. Have you ever played Aquatic Ruin? Higher path, middle path and lower path all pace completely different than each other. Casino Night then? Playing Casino Night well means going through lots of slopes and sometimes flying through big chunks of the stage. Playing it not well means being constantly waiting to advance the stage in elevators and on "launcher springs".

Sure, some stages feel samey and doesn't have many alternate paths in Sonic 2, but also slow stages on Sonic 1 (Labyrinth, Marble) also have this (although I believe for different reasons).

[Metal Man88]

Sonic 2 sort of allows the player to pick a favorite path and with practice, stick to it.

Sonic 1 makes a very strict distinction about paths, with many of them being different difficulties.

S3K feels more linear and other paths seem to just be diversions.

Sonic 2 is actually fairly deadly. S3K is more relaxing because it takes until the second zone to really start dispensing lethality, while Emerald Hill has a few well hidden pits and nastiness in it...

[RhinestoneCircuit]

Besides dropping it in a toilet and by some miracle after letting it dry after days and days and it still working, Sonic 2 was pretty kickass when I first had it. I usually played it along side my little sister, either watching me or controlling Tails and sending her to defeat enemies =P

I played #2 before actually playing #1, borrowing that one from my cousin for a few weeks. What made me smile the most was how much bigger the environments were compared to one, I explored so much that to this day I'm surprised that I never had a time over. Anytime I played I tried to see if there were different ways to exploit the spin dash, one leading me through the floor. After getting past Wing Fortress and towards Death Egg, a tiny thought emerged from my head thinking "I wish it would show how Sonic got to the other places he went to like it did here", and then along came Sonic 3.

This post has been edited by RhinestoneCircuit: 07 December 2011 - 04:28 AM

[Squier Super Sonic]

I have a basic Sonic 2 question and this thread seems like the right place to ask: are there any parts that require spindash to progress besides Metropolis? I know Sonic 3/k had plenty but I can't recall off hand any times in was absolutely necessary to spin dash besides in Metropolis Zone.

[jasonchrist]

Squier Super Sonic, on 07 December 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

I have a basic Sonic 2 question and this thread seems like the right place to ask: are there any parts that require spindash to progress besides Metropolis? I know Sonic 3/k had plenty but I can't recall off hand any times in was absolutely necessary to spin dash besides in Metropolis Zone.

Nope! JUST that part, and even then you don't need it if you have super sonic.

[Jayextee]

Squier Super Sonic, on 07 December 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

I have a basic Sonic 2 question and this thread seems like the right place to ask: are there any parts that require spindash to progress besides Metropolis? I know Sonic 3/k had plenty but I can't recall off hand any times in was absolutely necessary to spin dash besides in Metropolis Zone.

If you know how momentum works, not even Metropolis Zone. I hate the Spin Dash, so I do this pretty regularly.

[jenniferdarknight]

Sonic 2 actually has a really strong resonance with me; not only was it the first real Sonic game I'd ever played (I don't count the first Sonic—I'd watched my big sister play it back then and even then I didn't really play it until later on down the line), but it was also the game that got me into video games in general. I'd usually play it with my older sister in the two-player modes, or play as Tails when I had a chance to snag the Genesis long enough to play it. The gameplay was flowing and intuitive, the level design was easy to understand (but with enough paths to keep variety), though the Emerald Stages can go die in the flames from whence they came. I sort of wish that Metropolis Zone was remade for Sonic Generations rather than Chemical Plant, though, but that's just because that stage is hands down my absolute favorite in just about any Sonic game (I think Sky Sanctuary and Lava Reef from S3&K just barely beat it).

Heck, I still spend hours playing it to this day, and I bought a Type-2 Genesis earlier this year just to be able to play the game again (now if only I could find a Sega CD that works...).

Though I do have to disagree with it being one of the more 'relaxing' Genesis titles; Sonic 3 and Knuckles wins that award for me. While it might be more flowing than Sonic 1, and certainly easier, Sonic 2 still could trip you up and be truly deadly (hello, Mystic Cave and Wing Fortress!)--much more so than Sonic 3 or Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

And on the Spindash question? You don't really HAVE to spindash anywhere. I actually hate using the thing in Metropolis since it usually ends up doing me more harm than good...I just use it to regain momentum if I mess up somewhere (which is often on a bad day).