[The KKM]

Guys, let us not get ahead of ourselves here. Community projects are nice, but erch, Project Retro.




Anyway, I'd like to see not so much a remake of the Game Gear Sonic games as a complete reinterpretation. Maybe join them all in one huge game, with Nack and Bridge Zone and whatnot. New art, new sprites, etc. It has the potential to be pretty amazing.




I actually think SEGA of America should get a small team to work with Taxman, some artists, some musicians, making a team with the Retro Engine in center and focused on the downloadable market. Then they could grab one of the critics most fans are making- the total absence of playable characters outside Sonic- and produce games for Knuckles, Tails, Chaotix, Amy, all with relatively low costs and risk, what with it not being a fully-fledged physically released Hedgehog Engined game.




Alternatively, please please please Tails' Adventures.

[Ritz]

Sodaholic, on 06 December 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

@Ritz I wouldn't remove 2 of the acts, honestly. Sure, they could use some redesigning, but I don't see shortening a game as a good thing in most cases. And those powerups did have legitimately useful functions. The combine ring was useful so you could keep all your rings (especially if you had a lot), there's no way a player can pick up all the rings that he dropped, especially considering that you lose all of your rings at once, but there's a cap on how many that spawn (20 at most, I think?). If you had 100 rings, the combine ring would allow you to get all 100 back, as opposed to getting 20 at the most, if you're lucky enough to manage to grab all of them in time. The grow powerup was so you could move faster and jump higher, that's certainly not pointless. The shrink did the opposite, so it was more of a powerdown, but still had a point (the point being avoid the damn thing).

The combine ring and the shield both fulfill the same purpose, only the latter has some considerable grounding in the franchise and it isn't something you have to pointlessly chase after for its effect to kick in. Totally redundant. The game is easy enough without two shields! The grow powerup was so fucking toxic you could barely move without getting stuck somewhere, it was more of a hindrance than the shrink box. There are speed shoes in the game and jumping higher is never useful, so what's the point? The shrink is still pretty worthless- we've got enemies and spikes and stage-specific hazards, isn't that punishment enough for the player? Both were at least novel, so it's not like they're hurting the game, but it definitely isn't something I'd have wasted my time on. It was a matter of showing off the hardware's capabilities over cogent game design.

Sodaholic, on 06 December 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

Lastly, I kinda enjoyed the final bosses, I thought they were fun. Certainly more interesting and elaborate than the other games. Sonic 1 just had you whacking some platform that came crushing down on occasion, and then dodging some slow moving damaging orbs. Boring. Sonic 2 had the player fight a robotic version of himself, and then jumping up at a giant Eggman robot that walked toward you and shot missiles. Certainly an improvement over Sonic 1's shitty final boss, but still fairly simple. Sonic 3 had the player destroying the fingers of another giant Eggman robot, and then chasing it in space. About on par with Sonic 2's I suppose. Sonic CD had the player attacking Eggman in a 4 bladed machine that lost a blade every time it was hit. Better than Sonic 1, but not all that great. Finally, Chaotix first had the player dodging many different kinds of traps that Metal Sonic used to attack the player with, and then after that was done, he turned huge and red, and attacked with many different kinds of attacks. Easily the most complex and interesting, and therefore best final boss in any Sonic game in my opinion.

You're twisted. The first phase is fine and I wasn't talking about that, but the final boss is a big hulking static prerendered sprite that hovered towards you very slowly trying to tickle you. And then it had that laser only Vector even had to duck to dodge. It was an intimidating figure with a neat arena- just one more thing with a lot of potential that totally went to waste- but it isn't anywhere near as sophisticated or challenging as any of the other final bosses. Even swinging ball Eggman was tougher. So, yeah, make it suck less.

In fact, pretty much all of the bosses in this game were executed poorly aside from Speed Slider's. You actually have to sit and watch some of them before you can even figure out what they're supposed to be doing. They're all very cool, but if we're going to have 5 stages per zone (and I'd really, really advise against this, that's just way too fucking many, you'll have seen everything there is to interact with in 2), they really need to culminate in a fight that isn't going to take me 20 seconds to blow through. Tweaks for everyone!

null1024, on 06 December 2011 - 08:14 PM, said:

And am I the only person who really likes the partner system? Physics and everything?

I really don't have a problem with it! People are retarded and can't even figure out how to use tension to catapult themselves, and then they wonder why the spindash is so weak. I had a lot of fun toying with it, but it made it pretty easy to break the game, and people just can't come to grips with something so unintuitive in a series known for the simplicity of its controls. Make it optional.

Guess Who, on 07 December 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

But if you do all this shit you're not rereleasing Knuckles Chaotix, you're basically taking the name and art and making a whole new fucking game. Why even bother still calling it Knuckles Chaotix anymore? Why not just go one step further, make new art and music, and call it Knuckles Chaotix 2 or something?

Because 1) That would take about three times as much effort, and 2) It'd be a ginormous fucking waste anyway when hardly anyone has had a chance to experience the original, or even knows of its existence to begin with. It'd come off as something totally new and it would only take them about five months to complete, and that's being generous.

EDIT: I really must stress that what I'm suggesting here really only amounts to tweaks, hardly a total revamp. The zones should remain true to their original motifs insofar as they can, but there definitely needs to be less of an emphasis on vertical ascension and half-loops everywhere. They might have to create a few new tiles and they'll definitely need to sprite and code 2-3 new gimmicks for each stage, but that's really all there is to it!

This post has been edited by Ritz: 09 December 2011 - 04:19 PM

[ICEknight]

The KKM, on 09 December 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

Anyway, I'd like to see not so much a remake of the Game Gear Sonic games as a complete reinterpretation. Maybe join them all in one huge game, with Nack and Bridge Zone and whatnot.

This is probably what they'd do to save time and development costs if they ever revisited the old Game Gear games, but why settle for one good experience when you can have five good full-blown games, each one with its own villiains, gameplay quirks and overall style?

This post has been edited by ICEknight: 09 December 2011 - 05:19 PM

[edwardok]

I'm a huge fan of the 8-bit games, especially 2 and Triple Trouble, so this is all really exciting. II always seemed to move a bit more smoothly (albeit with somewhat bland worlds), but Chaos and TT were a lot faster - Genesizing them would bring them all to the same standard, make the loops a lot less hilariously awkward and give best of both worlds as it were. Would Sonic I's levels be too small for Genesis Sonic? Jungle 2 seems really long but that might just be its sheer vertical-ness.

[Frodo T. Baggins]

Would be sweet for them to show some love for the old 8-bit titles.

I like the idea of taking the most original (read: not like 16-bit games' levels) zones and fleshing them out further, and making some sort of "best of" game out of the 8-bit Sonics. Throw in Tails, Knuckles, Nack, etc. Totally down with it.

[Turbohog]

I'm really nitpicky myself, so I'd rather see the 8 bit games recreated extremely faithfully...After that, additions could be made if desired if you ask me. Also, just so we're clear, is everything thinking of making rom hacks to accomplish this and a possible Knuckles Chaotix Recreation? Since we don't have access to Taxman's engine and I doubt anyone would want to put the effort into coding anything as good as it, I'd say our best bet rom hacking. Plus, we've got some disassemblies now.

[W.A.C.]

I'd like to see remakes of the main GG/MS Sonic games, but with enhancements besides graphics I.E. similar to what was done with the Sonic CD port. Some teaks to make certain boss battles better would be pretty sweet too.

Sodaholic, on 09 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

After doing a couple calculations, I've determined 1.5 by 1.25 to be good, if the wide pixel aspect ratio is taken into account. This is based on Sonic's sprites between the 8 bit and 16 bit versions, while taking the screen aspect ratio differences into account.

Edit: I'd rather start a topic there when it's actually been started.

The resolution on the GG games was tiny as hell. Just base the resolution as if it were originally designed with the Genesis in mind. If I misinterpreted your post, my bad.

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 10 December 2011 - 04:19 AM

[edwardok]

Easy to sympathise with the idea of faithfulness, but porting it is going to change the physics and change the difficulty. Sonic moves considerably differently in the first couple of 8-bit Sonics and somewhat differently in Chaos and TT. THe difficulty that besets, say Sonic II on the GG is completely obliterated by playing it full-screen on the SMS, ditto if it were on the Genesis. Hopefully nobody would suggest nerfing the physics to fit what the 8-bit could be... but if you don't, you're automatically changing the dynamics and the game. The TT levels are nice and big so they'd fit nicely, but the Sonic 1 levels are puny - check the maps. Green Hill 2 just seems so so so small.

Also easy to say, hey, let's do all the games, but you've got to start somewhere, and a project like this was started before but abandoned (albeit in favour of an even cooler hack).

[Jayextee]

A remix of Chaotix should just use that sublime art an those funky tunes and throw the rest away. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Now the facts are over, my opinions on that matter: it should play like Sonic 2. No elemental shield clutter, air speed cap present (to torture the speed-runners a bit. Hey, it's okay - they love it), and a good variety of play styles like Sonic 2 offers; as opposed to S3K having levels that uniformly throw at the player speedways and slow-ass platforming in every single level. Very staccato. I know some of y'all like that shit, but I don't. Make it play like Sonic 2.

Oh yeah, and if the special stages don't rape the player's eyes, then they are done wrong. We're back to facts here with this one.

This post has been edited by Jayextee: 10 December 2011 - 07:53 AM

[The Game Collector]

Pretty much the way to go is start out by making your hack yourself, then just keep asking for help with it as you need it. Say hey I need a contribution to my hack here or there. The ones who support your hack are the ones who are most likely to help, and the ones who want it done a different way are the ones who probably won't help you and go ahead and work on their own hacks with a different group of people. If you've got 2 different visions, work on the one that is yours and see who's is better in the end when the next hacking contest comes up.

Hacking here doesn't seem like it's had as much drive as it used to and that's sad. Maybe because progress on big projects like Sonic Megamix and such are being kept hush hush. We're all older now than we were 4 years ago too and have to do other work in our lives we haven't had to do before, so we also don't have as much time. People coming up with new ideas here is great, and so is people bringing back old ideas with new twists. We have seen what Sega does to their return to 2D and it is still not Genesis. That's because Genesis is the one perfect platform for this series and there is still so much that can be done.

I'd like to see Sega make games using their lesser known Sonic characters, but fans doing that would also be a great idea. One of these days I'm going to ask my band leader if I can open up my download of Triple Fang on his laptop and see how good that fangame of Nack really is. I haven't gotten to try it because I only have PCs.

[Jayextee]

The Game Collector, on 10 December 2011 - 08:08 AM, said:

Hacking here doesn't seem like it's had as much drive as it used to and that's sad.

Speaking only from my own point of view, I'm just waiting until the tools are user-friendly enough for me to achieve what I want without getting distracted from the art by wrestling with poorly-executed UIs. Some are good, not all are. Back when I did the content for Sonic One (which got folded into the first two zones of S-Factor) I had a wealth of spare time I do not now; I could afford to wrestle. As it is, I need easier tools - I'm an artist, not a technician.

Don't get me wrong, though - I'm busting with ideas, and would love to go for it. Although I wouldn't personally go for a remake so much as original content.

[W.A.C.]

Jayextee, on 10 December 2011 - 07:52 AM, said:

A remix of Chaotix should just use that sublime art an those funky tunes and throw the rest away. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Now the facts are over, my opinions on that matter: it should play like Sonic 2. No elemental shield clutter, air speed cap present (to torture the speed-runners a bit. Hey, it's okay - they love it), and a good variety of play styles like Sonic 2 offers; as opposed to S3K having levels that uniformly throw at the player speedways and slow-ass platforming in every single level. Very staccato. I know some of y'all like that shit, but I don't. Make it play like Sonic 2.

Oh yeah, and if the special stages don't rape the player's eyes, then they are done wrong. We're back to facts here with this one.

What...what...WHAT? Elemental shields didn't clutter the gameplay, it added depth and why on earth is bringing back the speed cap a good idea? When it comes to play styles, S3&K was way more diverse and interesting. Different characters actually did different things which added a lot of replay value. Then when it came to the levels, they were much larger and less straight forward. Just comparing the first act of the fourth zone to both games gives a good idea of how much more well designed the levels were for S3&K. [LINK] [LINK]

[E-122-Psi]

Truthfully I'm less driven to play S3+K's levels than 1 and 2s. As mentioned all the levels are very long and puzzle driven, there are no real 'breathers' where you can just have fun and zoom along like in the first two. They are well designed levels but always hardcore and never let you relax for a moment.

edwardok, on 10 December 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

I'm a huge fan of the 8-bit games, especially 2 and Triple Trouble, so this is all really exciting. II always seemed to move a bit more smoothly (albeit with somewhat bland worlds), but Chaos and TT were a lot faster - Genesizing them would bring them all to the same standard, make the loops a lot less hilariously awkward and give best of both worlds as it were. Would Sonic I's levels be too small for Genesis Sonic? Jungle 2 seems really long but that might just be its sheer vertical-ness.

Jungle Zone worked a bit more akin to the Genesis levels due to it's more dynamic layout and occasional use of alternate pathways. Maybe get rid of the vertical lock in the second act however, that seemed of a cheap way to die and was kinda clunky in how it worked anyway.

The Bridge Zone however seems very basic, mostly a run right level with only a couple odd vertical platforms. While a one track level isn't rare in Sonic 1 Genesis (eg. Marble and Labyrinth the majority of the time) they were far more dynamic and filled with items and obstacles. Modifying the original layout to have more hidden vertical areas may work however (similar to how the Chaos Emerald is found by manipulating the falling logs) as well as adding a few more items and badniks to hide it's emptiness (possibly an ideal level to revive Splats for some uniqueness).

Sky Base is likely too frantic for gamers to care about it's basicness (I'm not really sure where it would appear in Genesis however, unless the Final Zone was modified to take place in it like it's 8 bit counterpart).

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 10 December 2011 - 09:17 AM

[dsrb]

E-122-Psi, on 10 December 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

Truthfully I'm less driven to play S3+K's levels than 1 and 2s. As mentioned all the levels are very long and puzzle driven, there are no real 'breathers' where you can just have fun and zoom along like in the first two. They are well designed levels but always hardcore and never let you relax for a moment.

Wha…Isn't it exactly the opposite? In overall terms, 3K’s levels being so much bigger and usually a bit less platforming-intensive, there are far more areas where you can speed ahead for long periods of time. CPZ and some parts of SLZ are exceptions, granted, but in sum I tend to think of the differences in the games as being the exact converse of this.

[E-122-Psi]

dsrb, on 10 December 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

E-122-Psi, on 10 December 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

Truthfully I'm less driven to play S3+K's levels than 1 and 2s. As mentioned all the levels are very long and puzzle driven, there are no real 'breathers' where you can just have fun and zoom along like in the first two. They are well designed levels but always hardcore and never let you relax for a moment.

Wha…Isn't it exactly the opposite? In overall terms, 3K’s levels being so much bigger and usually a bit less platforming-intensive, there are far more areas where you can speed ahead for long periods of time. CPZ and some parts of SLZ are exceptions, granted, but in sum I tend to think of the differences in the games as being the exact converse of this.

The length and depth of said levels however makes it hard to get into for just a brief bit of fun like the previous two games. Sonic 1 and 2 have indepth levels but balance them with quick fun speed through ones. Green Hill and Emerald Hill are fun little press right-a-thons while still having a lot of optional extra areas and innovations to add some detail into it. Angel Island however is more intense from the get go. I think this is part of the reason a VS Mode was made of original levels rather than the one player stages like Sonic 2, they wouldn't transfer as well for quick little races.

This is sorta why I prefered SA1's level design over SA2's and Heroes' as well. Shorter levels easier for a quick bit of fun (even if some of them were a bit too brief admitedly). The majority of SA2's and almost all of Heroes' are very complex and take up to five or ten minutes to finish.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 10 December 2011 - 11:33 AM