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Sonic game remake discussion Because the Sonic CD thread was getting sidetracked

#1 User is offline Sodaholic 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:46 AM

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View PostW.A.C., on 05 December 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

View PostMaster Emerald, on 05 December 2011 - 10:02 PM, said:

I guess we're getting off-topic :psyduck:

Well, this is a port by The Taxman and we're talking about other ports that could be made, but yeah it's definitely getting off-topic. Maybe someone could make a Sonic remakes thread or something.

So, yeah, just made a thread about it. Discuss how other Sonic games could be remade.


Something I wanted to note about Chaotix, since Sega doesn't have the rights to Mighty anymore, they would have to use Sonic in his place. Tails as an added extra would only make sense if Sonic is there, especially since the game was originally designed around having Tails in the game anyway. I bet that some of those unused sprites found of Sonic, Tails, Super Sonic, and the Tornado could find some use. Maybe rename the game to Chaotix (as it already was in Japan), or Sonic Chaotix.
This post has been edited by Sodaholic: 18 December 2011 - 03:47 PM

#2 User is offline W.A.C. 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:54 AM

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[LINK]

If they're allowed to include Mighty in a poster for City Escape in Generations and can use Mighty in the Archie comics, why can't he be in a Chaotix remake?

#3 User is offline Ritz 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:27 AM

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Quote

Fix the physics, make the combi system optional, totally redo the level design to rout the repetition and actually make use of the characters' unique abilities, and then emulate the original just for kicks and I'd gladly pay retail price for Chaotix.

Also remove the more pointless power-ups (grow/shrink, combine ring), make Sonic and Tails playable, make the final boss not suck, remove two acts from each zone and include polished versions of the Crackers zones as bonus levels.

That's it. Just about the only work that really needs to be done is to get a competent level designer on the job, the rest is mostly removing content. All you have to do is follow this checklist to make Chaotix the perfect Sonic game.
This post has been edited by Ritz: 06 December 2011 - 07:29 AM

#4 User is offline Sodaholic 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:47 AM

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View PostW.A.C., on 06 December 2011 - 06:54 AM, said:

[LINK]

If they're allowed to include Mighty in a poster for City Escape in Generations and can use Mighty in the Archie comics, why can't he be in a Chaotix remake?

Huh. Well, I generally heard that the guy who made Mighty left Sega some time ago (after the comic with him and Chaotix) and they don't have the rights to him anymore. Guess I got bad info.

@Ritz I wouldn't remove 2 of the acts, honestly. Sure, they could use some redesigning, but I don't see shortening a game as a good thing in most cases. And those powerups did have legitimately useful functions. The combine ring was useful so you could keep all your rings (especially if you had a lot), there's no way a player can pick up all the rings that he dropped, especially considering that you lose all of your rings at once, but there's a cap on how many that spawn (20 at most, I think?). If you had 100 rings, the combine ring would allow you to get all 100 back, as opposed to getting 20 at the most, if you're lucky enough to manage to grab all of them in time. The grow powerup was so you could move faster and jump higher, that's certainly not pointless. The shrink did the opposite, so it was more of a powerdown, but still had a point (the point being avoid the damn thing).

Lastly, I kinda enjoyed the final bosses, I thought they were fun. Certainly more interesting and elaborate than the other games. Sonic 1 just had you whacking some platform that came crushing down on occasion, and then dodging some slow moving damaging orbs. Boring. Sonic 2 had the player fight a robotic version of himself, and then jumping up at a giant Eggman robot that walked toward you and shot missiles. Certainly an improvement over Sonic 1's shitty final boss, but still fairly simple. Sonic 3 had the player destroying the fingers of another giant Eggman robot, and then chasing it in space. About on par with Sonic 2's I suppose. Sonic CD had the player attacking Eggman in a 4 bladed machine that lost a blade every time it was hit. Better than Sonic 1, but not all that great. Finally, Chaotix first had the player dodging many different kinds of traps that Metal Sonic used to attack the player with, and then after that was done, he turned huge and red, and attacked with many different kinds of attacks. Easily the most complex and interesting, and therefore best final boss in any Sonic game in my opinion.

#5 User is offline E-122-Psi 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:53 PM

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My best suggestion for Chaotix is to add new innovations to the levels that wouldn't obstruct too much on the original design.

For example placing water in some levels (likely Marina Madness) would likely not require editing the structure so long as the depth was precise enough. Perhaps some boosters in Speed Slider as well. I'd advise making any new designs level specific so as to add variety to each one they so direly lacked in the original.

Alternatively just make an alternative mode with completely revamped levels, eg. a Hard Mode. Easy way to go nuts with redesigning the game while still pleasing purists.
This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2011 - 07:56 PM

#6 User is offline Solid SOAP 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:00 PM

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I think SEGA should get the Genesis trilogy out of the way (Including S3&K as a whole) and just release something along the lines of a "Sonic Perfect Collection" for 360, PS3, and PC, with Taxman's engine and widescreen for all games, along with some cute little features like Tails and Knuckles playable in Sonic 1 and 2, and spindash for Sonic 1. I'd buy it at $20-$30, honestly.

#7 User is offline null1024 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:14 PM

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I like Chaotix, but it really really feels like it suddenly got rushed out the door, like "la la la, working on a game OH SHIT DEADLINE".
5 act zones are A-OK. Just make the acts... well... good. There's nothing catastrophically wrong with them, they are just boring most of the time. Fun at times, but boring.

The new things it added [blue springs, all the various monitors] were genuinely interesting things that I'm a bit sad never got brought into another Sonic game [barring the monitors that depended on having multiple characters].
Even the shrink monitor could be useful if you had your partner hit it around an area that his weight was screwing with your trajectory.

Also, the red Metal Sonic boss... well, it's too easy, but 1: the stage arena is pretty [although that shouldn't count], 2: it's interesting to fight it, has a couple forms, and 3: it's satisfying to defeat.
In a remake, it could probably be harder.

And am I the only person who really likes the partner system? Physics and everything?
I think one of the bigger issues with the level design is that designing levels around the partners was something alien.

#8 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:22 PM

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Chaotix indeed had a repetitive level design, but I think it's still nice for short game sessions.

I feel that it could work as a nice online vs. experience with all the levels it has, and the many characters to choose from (of course, if they first tweak Charmy's flight so it doesn't break the gameplay).


Also, as I mentioned in the previous topic, for those who don't like the gimmick, there could be a "Rubberband: On/Off" option that enables the "Sonic 2 mode" already present in the Sonic CD remake, and which could also make the secondary character step on his designated switches automatically like Knuckles does in Sky Sanctuary.


In any case, remaking the 8 bit Sonics with proper graphics, sound and physics would be amazing for every Classic Sonic fan, but that would take a lot of effort.
This post has been edited by ICEknight: 06 December 2011 - 08:23 PM

#9 User is offline Sparks 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:46 PM

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Chaotixs level design would require entire revamps, which by that point, you might as well just use time and resources to make an original game featuring the Chaotix playable instead.

I'm down for the 8 Bit games being remade though. We're already kind of getting there. :ssh:

#10 User is offline Sodaholic 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:51 PM

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View PostICEknight, on 06 December 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

In any case, remaking the 8 bit Sonics with proper graphics, sound and physics would be amazing for every Classic Sonic fan, but that would take a lot of effort.

I've always wanted to make a series of Genesis versions of the 8 bit games by hacking Sonic 1 and 2. Sonic 1 would be a hacked version of Sonic 1, obviously, due to the shared levels. SLZ would be modified into being that airship level (forgot it's name), due to the shared art. Sonic 2 would also be a hack of Sonic 1, since it largely retained Sonic 1 gameplay (Sonic 1 style Sonic sprites, no Tails, etc.). It would borrow some resources from Sonic 2, like EHZ's art for SHZ and GHZ. It would also use horizontally flipped Sonic 2 beta title screen art, with Sonic's hand being replaced with holding 2 fingers up. The reason for using this art would be because that actually is what Sonic 2 8-bit's title screen is, it's based directly off of the beta title screen.

Sonic Chaos and Sonic Triple trouble would be based on Sonic 2. A small liberty would be taken with those games allowing Tails to tag along with Sonic if the player so chooses. THZ in Chaos would be based directly off of EHZ, since it was clearly the same level for the most part. Chaos's Sonic sprites clearly followed Sonic 2's in both animation and style, so his Sonic 2 sprites would be retained. Triple Trouble on the other hand, would use Sonic 3 sprites for Sonic, since it's fairly close in style, that, and the game was clearly attempting to mimmick Sonic 3.

I propose that this could be a community made set of hacks, since it seems to be a generally popular idea. Being the one that proposed it, I'd like to generally be the one directing it. I want to be as conservatively close to the original games as possible, while turning them 16 bit. The most major design change I'm willing to make is having all three player modes available in the second two games, rather than just Sonic or Tails alone. I was planning on doing it entirely on my own at some point, but I've been focusing on another hack at the moment, and figure that the community may not mind contributing to such a project.

What does Retro think?

#11 User is offline E-122-Psi 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:54 PM

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An enhanced Sonic 1 with the 8 bit levels added on would be a fun idea (though I believe someone here is actually doing something like that).

While a rather different order, I'd personally like an enhanced Mean Bean Machine with the 8 bit Nazo Puyo stages in 16 bit form too.
This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2011 - 08:54 PM

#12 User is offline Sodaholic 

Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:04 PM

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View PostE-122-Psi, on 06 December 2011 - 08:54 PM, said:

An enhanced Sonic 1 with the 8 bit levels added on would be a fun idea (though I believe someone here is actually doing something like that).

Are you referring to Hivebrain's old Sonic 1 + (or whatever it was called) hack from years back? Regardless, it would be my intent to replace the existing levels that were present in the 16 bit version with their 8 bit layouts, and simply remove the levels that weren't in the 8 bit version, opting to replace them with the 8 bit exclusive levels. Luckily, the 8 bit exclusive levels all share many similarities with the 16 bit exclusive levels graphically. Bridge Zone is very, very similar to Marble Zone's outdoor sections graphically. Star Light Zone has many graphical objects shared by the airship level in 8 bit. I suppose Jungle Zone doesn't really share much with Spring Yard Zone, but oh well.

The SMS versions would be used as the primary reference for gameplay (more applicable in design choices due to having a large screen size like the Genesis), whereas the GG versions would be used as the primary reference for palettes, due to it's superior video hardware.


EDIT: I forgot to mention, all level layouts should be 1.5 times the size of the original, as this appears to be a good scale when dealing with converting things between 8-bit Sonic levels and objects to 16-bit, based on the Sonic object size between the two formats.
This post has been edited by Sodaholic: 06 December 2011 - 09:20 PM

#13 User is offline Guess Who 

Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:43 PM

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View PostRitz, on 06 December 2011 - 07:27 AM, said:

Quote

Fix the physics, make the combi system optional, totally redo the level design to rout the repetition and actually make use of the characters' unique abilities, and then emulate the original just for kicks and I'd gladly pay retail price for Chaotix.

Also remove the more pointless power-ups (grow/shrink, combine ring), make Sonic and Tails playable, make the final boss not suck, remove two acts from each zone and include polished versions of the Crackers zones as bonus levels.

That's it. Just about the only work that really needs to be done is to get a competent level designer on the job, the rest is mostly removing content. All you have to do is follow this checklist to make Chaotix the perfect Sonic game.


But if you do all this shit you're not rereleasing Knuckles Chaotix, you're basically taking the name and art and making a whole new fucking game. Why even bother still calling it Knuckles Chaotix anymore? Why not just go one step further, make new art and music, and call it Knuckles Chaotix 2 or something?

#14 User is offline Sodaholic 

Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:27 PM

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Really though, what does anyone think of a community project to remake the 8 bit games?

#15 User is offline Shadow Hog 

Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:55 PM

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View PostSodaholic, on 07 December 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

Really though, what does anyone think of a community project to remake the 8 bit games?
I wouldn't trust it to go anywhere. Even Sonic 2 HD, the most active of the community projects that I know of, went quiet for almost all of November. Not a good sign.

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