[Aerosol]

Hukos, on 02 August 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So would you say that the entire Metroid speedrunning scene is illegitimate? The existence of the mockball technique is derived from a glitch, and that's pretty big in Super Metroid speedruns (Like skipping the Spore Spawn boss fight entirely by getting super missiles early because of the mockball). If it weren't for these techniques, sequence breaking wouldn't be possible at all.

Are you sure about that? I've never even heard of this "mockball" technique, let alone used it, and I was sequence breaking before I even knew there was a sequence you were supposed to be following.

[Hukos]

AerosolSP, on 02 August 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Hukos, on 02 August 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So would you say that the entire Metroid speedrunning scene is illegitimate? The existence of the mockball technique is derived from a glitch, and that's pretty big in Super Metroid speedruns (Like skipping the Spore Spawn boss fight entirely by getting super missiles early because of the mockball). If it weren't for these techniques, sequence breaking wouldn't be possible at all.

Are you sure about that? I've never even heard of this "mockball" technique, let alone used it, and I was sequence breaking before I even knew there was a sequence you were supposed to be following.

Well then, what do you consider to be a sequence break? Because it seems like we have two entirely different definitions of the term. I think of a Sequence break as getting through an area you clearly aren't meant to go through at that point in the game through glitch abuse or other methods.

The Mockball technique is a glitch that essentially allows you to roll in Morphball form while still maintaining top running speed, which let's you past certain barriers that you normally would need the Speed Booster to get through. Like I said, this can allow you to get the Super Missile expansion not far from the Spore Spawn, then destroy the Super Missile barrier that normally prevents you from moving on, allowing you to skip him entirely.

[Aerosol]

From Metroid.wikia.com

Quote

The Wall Jump can be used to collect Power Bombs before the Grapple Beam, the Wave Beam, Spazer Beam, X-Ray Scope, reach Kraid early, and get into the Wrecked Ship without the Grapple and thus collect an early Gravity Suit.

I have done all of this, because I got stuck and thought I was supposed to. Sequence breaking is very possible in Super Metroid without exploiting glitches.

EDIT: Let me just add, however, that I don't care if people abuse glitches for speedrunning purposes. I just don't find it impressive in terms of a speedrun. The glitches themselves are impressive, sometimes. But when someone uses one and turns around and says LOOK AT MAH AWESOME TIME!!! all I can think is "meh".

This post has been edited by AerosolSP: 02 August 2012 - 02:54 PM

[Hukos]

Quote

I think of a Sequence break as getting through an area you clearly aren't meant to go through at that point in the game through glitch abuse or other methods

Quote

EDIT: Let me just add, however, that I don't care if people abuse glitches for speedrunning purposes. I just don't find it impressive in terms of a speedrun. The glitches themselves are impressive, sometimes. But when someone uses one and turns around and says LOOK AT MAH AWESOME TIME!!! all I can think is "meh".

That's all well and good, but in a speedrun, I want maximum efficiency. If there's a trick to make the run even faster, then utilize it I say. A glitch-less speedrun is boring to me, since I know it could be even faster with these so called exploits. Maybe it's because I'm a massive efficiency whore, but it's more interesting to see how these glitches affect how people do speedruns and how much more time is saved because of them.

This post has been edited by Hukos: 02 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

[Tanks]

If its in the game, requires some skill to abuse, and doesn't make it so you get 0.001 for your record time... I'd say its a legitimate record run, but I'm not opposed to anyone differentiating between a glitch run and a vanilla run.

[JaredAFX]

There's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Do you think the "Classic" and "Modern" Sonic setup in Generations just added more fuel to the Classic and Modern "fags"? I mean, look at Mariotehfucker. He classifies himself as "the number 1 Sonic fan" when he "loves" Classic Sonic games, never plays those, but shows off the Modern games he hates and has completed 100%. I know he's a troll, but there are plenty of people like him.
Personally, I don't believe in the Classic and Modern Sonic thing. I think it's all one Sonic. How does he get longer quills and green eyes? I don't know. All I know is I like Sonic Adventure just as much as Sonic 1.

This post has been edited by JaredAFX: 03 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

[Myriad]

JaredAFX, on 03 August 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

There's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Do you think the "Classic" and "Modern" Sonic setup in Generations just added more fuel to the Classic and Modern "fags"? I mean, look at Mariotehfucker. He classifies himself as "the number 1 Sonic fan" when he "loves" Classic Sonic games, never plays those, but shows off the Modern games he hates and has completed 100%. I know he's a troll, but there are plenty of people like him.
Personally, I don't believe in the Classic and Modern Sonic thing. I think it's all one Sonic. How does he get longer quills and green eyes? I don't know. All I know is I like Sonic Adventure just as much as Sonic 1.

I'm very much in that same boat, Sonic is Sonic, there's not a fuck of difference, it's the same core game it ever was. But, Sonic Generations seems to be the merging of two parties that should never meet. There'll be three groups of people, one of which will be squealing their endless excitement that their much loved mascot of the 90s is back in the series, while another party will squawk away that they shouldn't bring in that old guff, as it's just soooo last year. Then there'd be the third party, people like me, shouting from the sidelines that they are the same character, but because the two other parties are spitting so many immaturities at each other, they can't hear that third party. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck whichever generation of Sonic is better, so long as the game is at least half-decent, there may as well be no need to shout.

That came out more offensive and rude than I anticipated, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.

[Joltanz Mantis]

It only added more fuel to those who actually waste their time ranting about which is better. I doubt we're going to waste our time discussing such a trivial subject. I forgot who, but someone has a signature which says that it's only 1 Sonic, that Classic and Modern are simply adjectives. I like that sig.

[Falk]

Well, I'm inclined to agree, but 'modern' sonic still visually looks awkward as hell in S4E1/E2.

This post has been edited by Falk: 03 August 2012 - 05:25 PM

[Joltanz Mantis]

Falk, on 03 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Well, I'm inclined to agree, but 'modern' sonic still visually looks awkward as hell in S4E1/E2.

Those games are just mediocre. We're talking in general.

[Dark Sonic]

It's funny because I'm a fan who loves both sides. Generations is the perfect Sonic game for me in theory (execution was pretty good but not 100%, in part due to classic Sonic's feel and the level selection). Half of it is the classic gameplay I grew up with and still love today, and half of it is the modern gameplay that made Sonic finally decent in 3D, even if part of it is in 2D. I like both, almost equally. In fact I'm pretty sure my play counts for levels on the 360 version both average out to be around 500. Seeing the two styles of Sonic side by side is kind of strange though, and while classic Sonic works great for 2D, I'm not quite sure who wins in 3D. Those videos with classic Sonic in modern levels, classic just looks odd from the behind angle, perhaps in part due to the wheel-o-feet and the static arms. I'd have to see that edited before I could decide for sure. I will say this though, classic Sonic and Tails are simply much cuter then their modern counterparts, and while modern Sonic works, modern Tails is one awkward motherfucker.

Robotnik on the other hand is kind of strange with his classic 3D model thanks to the eyebrows. Now if they decided not to interpret that character design sheet so accurately and just gave him modern eggman's glasses, it probably would have worked a lot better then those quite strange looking glasses he wears in game (Ya, they look more classic, but they're too big and not glass like enough). Modern Eggman has grown on me though.

[Falk]

Joltanz Mantis, on 03 August 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Falk, on 03 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Well, I'm inclined to agree, but 'modern' sonic still visually looks awkward as hell in S4E1/E2.

Those games are just mediocre. We're talking in general.

Well, I meant even with homing attack, it really felt as it should have gone with classic visuals. If not so much in characterization, at least in art style. Sorta like how FF9 has 'chibi' characters as its art style, and that has no real bearing on personalities. It's more of an association with gameplay <--> visuals than it is the actual 'modern vs classic' thing. I mean, the american Sonic cartoons and comics pretty much had a classic look with a modern-ish attitude, if you get what I mean.

Then again I've always found the Advance games weird for the same reason too, so it's probably just me.

This post has been edited by Falk: 03 August 2012 - 06:43 PM

[Dark Sonic]

^ I'm inclined to think that classic Sonic should become the toon link of the series, saved for portables or things like Sonic 4, while modern Sonic can be used for big retail outings (Alternately, classic Sonic should always be available as a skin for modern Sonic, same applies for the rest of the cast. It would only change things aesthetically, but the rest of the game could remain the same. Sonic 4, you missed out on a real easy bonus option. For shame.)

And at the same time, Generations opens up a whole new world for potential Classic Sonic plots. Why? Because even though time was restored at the end, classic Eggman still has to go back to the past at some point, and who's to say modern Eggman didn't fill him in on his failures while they were trapped in nothingness? Classic robotnik could go back to his proper time and effectively create a vastly different timeline far removed from the classic trilogy. Not that plot really matters in Sonic games, but still, if they want a reason to use classic, there's one.

Also they got to realize that classic sells by now. I mean look at all the merchandise. Half of it is classic related. Now I'm not saying that creating this split was necessarily a good thing, but honestly Generations did a good thing by doing this IMO. For better or for worse, they defined what Sonic is. They have the modern style gameplay, and the classic style gameplay. It's their way of saying "fuck Adventure, Heroes, Shadow, Sonic 06, and the storybook games. They didn't happen, and even if they did we're not going back to that." While it may have alienated some fans, quite honestly, what were they really liking? Pointlessly dark stories, bad gameplay, and not even Sonic type gameplay? That's not Sonic, find another game to play that does all of that better then Sonic if that's what you're there for. It'd be like liking Mario Galaxy because you enjoy compelling stories. Find a better game that does that.

Hate Iizuka if you must, but I praise him for at least putting the series in a direction so it no longer has to reset itself each and every new game. That period from Heroes to before Unleashed was just awful, even if it was only 4 years, it felt like ages of just being lost with no direction. Now, unlike in the past, games can actually build off what they had before and improve on the formula. Unleashed day stages were a good start, they were given an interesting twist in Colors, and finally they were greatly improved in Generations. Granted, Sonic 4 doesn't follow this necessarily, but Ep 2 did improve over Ep 1, so at least there's that.

This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 03 August 2012 - 06:56 PM

[Joltanz Mantis]

Falk, on 03 August 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Joltanz Mantis, on 03 August 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Falk, on 03 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Well, I'm inclined to agree, but 'modern' sonic still visually looks awkward as hell in S4E1/E2.

Those games are just mediocre. We're talking in general.

Well, I meant even with homing attack, it really felt as it should have gone with classic visuals. If not so much in characterization, at least in art style. Sorta like how FF9 has 'chibi' characters as its art style, and that has no real bearing on personalities. It's more of an association with gameplay <--> visuals than it is the actual 'modern vs classic' thing. I mean, the american Sonic cartoons and comics pretty much had a classic look with a modern-ish attitude, if you get what I mean.

Then again I've always found the Advance games weird for the same reason too, so it's probably just me.

That's probably because we're used to the original trilogy with the original design, so it Sonic 4 just looks wrong. The game itself is fine, but the level tropes are a lot more realistic than usual. Sylvania Castle is quite dark, White Park is White and Brown, not much else, Oil Desert is a lot more industrial than cartoony with generic colours, like gray and orange, and Sky Fortress, same thing than Oil Desert. Also, why is Sonic purple? Even with a revamped visuals, they still kind of failed to make it Sonic-y. Take the Oil Desert graphics and paste them into a Contra-like game, and it somehow fits in...

[Master Emerald]

Well, someone needs to calibrate their monitor, Sonic is NOT purple and Sylvania Castle is less dark than Hidrocity (and a lot brighter than Aquatic Ruin on the dry sections where the sun is visible).

I'm very happy with Sonic 4 EP2. With some adjustments on the gameplay (physics, gimmicks etc ~~am I the only one who miss the 3D gimmicks from the Rush Series?) we could haver a more than Solid 'Sonic 5'.

This post has been edited by Master Emerald: 03 August 2012 - 11:46 PM