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Sonic Generations technical oddities & flaws (Unpaid betatesting) SEGA, please look inside

#1 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:36 AM

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I just thought it would be a good idea to make a topic where the guys at SEGA who usually lurk in here can take a quick look at the (few?) complaints people are making after having tried the demo. This way, there will be a place to focus on the stuff that feels off or unbalanced as well as their possible fixes. Also, this way the megathread can be spared the continuous mentions of the same flaws over and over again.

From what I've read, there's some problems with rolling physics, spindash strength and the jump angle in certain slopes. Feel free to post as many examples with extensive details as you can, so SEGA can be kept well informed about them and hopefully polish this engine a little more before the game gets released.

For starters, I'll quote some stuff that has been noted at the megathread:
QUOTE (FlackoWeasel @ Jun 23 2011, 05:46 AM)
it does do the edge poses, but you have to be on a very very edge place it to happen. It only occurs when your "about to fall off" edge and then it does these. I thought it happens way earlier. When I stand/standed? on a edge and kept moving more and more, Sonic started to go sliiiightly down way but still being on the edge and then it did the move. Sorry, hard to explain. Like you didn't fall off but being still on the edge but moved a bit down on it but did not fall off.
QUOTE (FlackoWeasel @ Jun 23 2011, 07:27 AM)

I recorded Sonic being on the edge. Interesting is that when he does the animation, you can rotate sonic in 3 ways.

QUOTE (Kiajinn @ Jun 23 2011, 05:18 AM)
Sonic's Idle pose slowly shifts him to the left while he is lying down.

QUOTE (Hodgy @ Jun 23 2011, 05:34 AM)
Its beautiful :D

the only issue I've had is the slight input lag when doing anything

QUOTE (NomadTW @ Jun 23 2011, 06:39 AM)
I'll keep this brief:

Sonic's a bit too weighty, takes a tad bit of getting used to. Overall physics are a lot better than Sonic 4's but not great.

Spindash is laughably overpowered. I'm...okay with this. Yeah.

Jumping isn't delayed normally, really, all of the iffy parts happen in certain sections, so I assume those'll be smoothed out.

Other than that, it's tits. Can't wait to see more and how they'll improve on this.

QUOTE (Diablohead @ Jun 23 2011, 06:48 AM)
I like the demo a lot and I'm rather picky with this stuff, sonic has air momentum back, he can't run up walls as easy as in sonic 4, the music isn't changed much from the original tune but that is better then the forced sonic 4 shit.

I dislike set bounce heights
I dislike how some springs will force your horizon movement until you hit the peak height to stop you abusing the spring
I dislike how you can run into the side of a classic spring and it will launch you
I dlslike no pushing animation
I dislike having a spindash hot button

But the rest I love smile.png

QUOTE (Josh @ Jun 23 2011, 06:50 AM)
That spin dash is CRAZY powerful, and is probably the biggest difference between this and the Genesis games. I think I'd actually prefer if they nerf it a fair bit, at LEAST make it so you have to stop and rev it to launch. I also don't like how when you DO rev it up, one button press won't get you anywhere. I'm used to being able to quick-rev a spin dash for short little bursts. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the way it is now in the slightest. It just feels a lot like Sonic Adventure's spin dash, you know?

QUOTE (GeneHF @ Jun 23 2011, 06:51 AM)
I noticed one thing. On the lower paths, there's a steep grade that leads into some loop de loops about halfway through the stage. If you roll down that grade, Sonic slows down really quickly right on the first loop. This is true even if you start running, roll down the hill and hit the loop. He should have enough momentum to clear the loop, gain a bit of speed, clear the second one, then keep going.

I wouldn't mind them trying to fix that up.

QUOTE (corneliab @ Jun 23 2011, 06:55 AM)
Man, you guys weren't kidding about the iffy rolling. It's virtually useless.

The juiced-up spindash is pretty ridiculous as well. Wtf.

QUOTE (MisterBadguy @ Jun 23 2011, 06:56 AM)
Played it a couple of times over now. Some thoughts:

-Physics are odd but not horrible. Momentum is not kept after a forward jump if you don't hold down one of the direction buttons, for example. Sonic just stops dead.
-Momentum is otherwise okay in regards to building speed, I found. A little iffy sometimes but nothing amazingly bad.
-Enemy bouncing IS fixed height, and to me it seems that the level has been partly designed to rely on that, particularly when you come across sections which require you to bounce off an enemy to get to a spring.
-Spindash is ridiculously overpowered. 2 revs puts it at full-speed so there's basically no point in revving it (but you probably will anyway, like I did).
-The tunnels seem to be scripted and fire you through at full speed regardless of how fast you're going.
-Rolling is a little weird and unresponsive sometimes, but it generally works alright. Sonic uncurls automatically at scripted sections of the level, which isn't really a big deal as you don't get attacked by enemies anyway.
-I felt as if the game was holding my hand at some points, particularly with parts where Sonic's speed seems to change in order to get him onto a specific platform. I'm willing to forgive this though, as it IS the first level.

Some weird quirks and annoying things, but overall it seems fairly decent. Some improvement regarding physics and general bugfixes would be desirable (I guess it'll see that inevitably though, we're still about 4 months from release), though.

QUOTE (Blue Blood @ Jun 23 2011, 08:19 AM)
Okay, the controls are crazy stiff. It's really awkward to turn, and jumping when you're going fast is a nightmare. The spindash, hot button or classic style, is overpowered and rolling is plain useless. And why can't I jump so soon after spinning? And saying that, when I do finally jump it's far too heavy. FAR too heavy.

Everything else is damn perfect though. The game is a blast.

QUOTE (PimpUigi @ Jun 23 2011, 08:23 AM)
The Speed Shoes are insanely under powered though.
You barely notice when you get them. They should really make them go the same speed as the spin dash.

QUOTE (minichapman @ Jun 23 2011, 08:33 AM)
Not sure how I done it but somehow I did. One of the many glitches I found, the only one I recorded.
Excuse the bad quality and sound.

QUOTE (Tanks @ Jun 23 2011, 09:58 AM)
Posting with the understanding that this game has a ways to go development-wise.

The physics are backwards to me. I can run through a loop from the base, but I can't , say, run->roll from the top of a hill and make it through? Has this Sonic 4 mentality really been engrained in their minds so much that it's impossible to look beyond it? At the very least I can say it's not "Sonic 4 bad," but still... Maybe it's the way they plan to design the levels? Maybe they just can't make the proper physics work with that? I dunno'.

This post has been edited by ICEknight: 23 June 2011 - 10:46 AM

#2 User is offline Lanzer 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:56 AM

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Found this in the generations topic:

QUOTE (Dusk Golem @ Jun 23 2011, 05:47 AM)
I'm a wizard.

So far I've found nothing but I'll post as soon as I do. was this glitch found in the demo as well?

#3 User is offline JcFerggy 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:00 AM

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I personally hate how much scripted sequences there are, and how/when they are used. I want to control Sonic. If I want to break sequence, I should be allowed to.

The second thing I hate is how rolling and spindash is handled. I'm just going to quote a pervious post by me, since all of my previous thoughts stand through after playing it.

QUOTE (JcFerggy @ Jun 9 2011, 11:07 AM)
Jump on an badnik? -> Fixed bounce height
Jump from a higher platform not holding jump? -> Fixed bounce height
Jump on a badnik from fixed bounce height or lower while holding jump? -> Fixed bounce height
Jump from a higher platform while holding jump? -> Bounce back to same height

That would not change shit all except to the expert players. You'd still be able to access all the same routes, since from the looks you are usually jumping from below anyway. And if there is an area you don't want Sonic to access, player clip or logical obstacle.

Increasing the rolling is something that would not effect gameplay much either. How fast you travel usually does not equate to problems unless you break the game. You can travel through Chemical Plant Zone both at a general run pace, and running so fast Sonic is no longer on screen.

Spindash speed is another thing that I would want changed. Sonic seems to go un-godly fast thanks to it, and I can't think of an area that would require such a drastic boost. Having the insta button nurfed would be like the C-Stick in Smash Bros. You can preform those moves quickly and easily, but actually timing and charging the move would result in more power. So inversely, having the player charge their spindash classic style would result in a faster launch speed if used right, or a pathetic one if only reved once.

The only thing that would require testing would be the jump height, but even still I can't think of anything that would harm gameplay except reaching areas that Sonic would have to use skill for; like bouncing off a badnik to reach a higher level.

I still had fun with it, but stuff like rolling and spindash bug me.

#4 User is offline BlazeHedgehog 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:21 AM

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I really like the demo, but...

  • I don't like how Sonic cannot accelerate while in mid-air (whatever his speed is when he jumps is the fastest he's allowed to travel in mid-air)
  • I don't like how freakishly overpowered the spindash is (charge time is too short, the speed gained from a full charge is too fast)
  • I don't like how S-curve tubes automatically set Sonic's speed to max the moment he enters one (they are meant to function as ways to build momentum naturally, not as scripted boosters)
  • One particular scripted scene bothers me: Sonic gets launched up in to the air, with a yellow spring on his left and a swinging platform on his right. It's scripted so that you always land on the platform, even though you have enough height to move over to the spring. Pushing left on the stick does nothing, but I should be able to hit that spring from the air without touching the swinging platform.
  • Rolling has more meaning here than it does in Sonic 4, but it still doesn't function "correctly". Rolling emphasizes slope momentum no matter when it's activated. It should do the same here, but doesn't.
  • Similarly, unless running at full tilt, there are some (not terribly steep!) slopes that Sonic seems to have trouble walking up.

This post has been edited by BlazeHedgehog: 23 June 2011 - 09:50 AM

#5 User is offline Ell678 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 11:13 AM

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QUOTE (Lanzer @ Jun 23 2011, 02:56 PM)
Found this in the generations topic:

QUOTE (Dusk Golem @ Jun 23 2011, 05:47 AM)
I'm a wizard.

I have had a similar bug, I spindashed at the preceding loop, he stood on the opposite side to the one in the picture for about half a second then dropped down. Other than that, no bugs, only what others have mentioned before about the rolling and spindash. Jumping feels a tiny bit off, but still good.

Good job Sonic Team!

#6 User is offline Andrew75 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 12:07 PM

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My biggest complaint is the lack of true sonic physics rules.
Small slopes in Generations don't even have physics.

Edit: the spring in the first tree shoots sonic directly up, there is no directional control going up.
Its as if sonic is being propelled up an invisible tube.
There is also a lack of Momentum passed on from Sonics run direction when using the springs as well.

Edit 2: Sonic doesn't seem to roll very far when attempting to roll down slopes.
In the classics Sonic gained quite a bit of momentum allowing Him to roll around much of the levels using the slopes.
I don't see that working out so well in Generations.
Its especially apparent on mid sized slopes facing each-other, sonic should be able to roll between them forever, gaining momentum each traversal.
instead he rolls down and stops at its foot in a ducking position.

Here is a video that I made some time back to help reference for the 2 fan game projects I'm working on.
Its a real shame Sega doesn't seem to do deep deep research into there own games when recreating the engine.
Quite a few Fan game engines ( some 3D) already pull off many of the rules listed in the below video.

This post has been edited by Andrew75: 23 June 2011 - 12:44 PM

#7 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 02:26 PM

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Having finally finished downloading this (PS3 version), and played through it a couple of times, I have a few thoughts:

1. THE FRAMERATE NEEDS SOME SERIOUS WORK. If Sonic is going to be running this fast and there's going to be so much detail in both the background and foreground, anything less than 60fps will make the game difficult to play. I didn't do anything as serious as capturing and counting frames to get an exact number, but it felt like it occasionally ran as slow as about 20fps by my estimate.

2. There are parts where the camera is too zoomed in to allow for a decent reaction time unless you're deliberately playing slowly. Since there don't seem to be any bottomless pits, this isn't a HUGE deal, but it's annoying that alternate paths are often inaccessible unless you know about them in advance.

3. Gravity is too heavy. Sonic's jump height is okay, but it seems like there's too much force to achieve this jump. He should be rising and falling more slowly, with a smoother transition between the two states.

4. On foot, Sonic accelerates too quickly on flat land, and not at all on even gentle inclines. I suspect the problem is, at least in part, related to friction, but I don't have enough of a physics background to know how it needs changed.

5. The camera sticks too tightly to Sonic. It needs some give, otherwise it's really disorienting when Sonic turns around suddenly. I think this is also contributing to the heavy feeling jump.

All in all, I'm not too disappointed, since even in early beta form this game appears to be generally better than the finished product we got in Sonic 4 final.
This post has been edited by Covarr: 23 June 2011 - 05:05 PM

#8 User is offline MisterBadguy 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 04:14 PM

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My original post is quoted above, which says all I really have to say with regards to what I found, but I did experience some quirkiness regarding speed at points, plus various other odd glitches here and there.

As has been said though, it's still pretty fun and overall quite good. A bit more spit-and-polish and it'll be great. Things I'd personally like to see fixed:

- Spindash revving. This can probably be worked with the single-button spindash too, just hold the button longer for more revs.
- Keeping momentum after forward jumps, even after the d-pad has been released.
- The music loop. Hearing it loop right from the beginning is quite jarring.
- At least a little variation in bounce height.
- Probably REALLY nitpicky, but I'd like to see the "getting up after being hurt" animation gone. I feel it kinda breaks the flow of gameplay a bit.

#9 User is offline JcFerggy 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:13 PM

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I keep playing the level, and I am getting more and more frustrated at how I am not in control of Sonic 100% of the time. I go off a spring? I have to wait till he's at the peak. I hit sideways spring, I can't jump for the next so many seconds. And the input lag is quite noticeable for me. Going off slopes sometimes messes with your speed too. Compare going off the slope that you hit the monitor in the tree, to the one right after the S bends. You almost seem to clip something, and your speed is dropped drastically.

Then there are just visual stuff I would like to be changed. It looks like the original blue Buzz Bomber is one that does not fire, then why not use him on that bouncing section after the halfpipe up the springs? It would be nice to see him more in the level. The level also lacks a serious amount of monitors. In the first level, it should set up the player to everything they should expect to see more or less in terms of tools, so it would be nice to see a regular shield and a invincibility.

#10 User is offline Mester Keel98 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:23 PM

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At the end corkscrew, you can "stand" on it in a running animation. In some small spots there, you can even do a tiny bit of 3D movement - pushing forward will up you just a tiny bit, down will take you a bit towards the screen, etc.

At any ledge when you're messing around with the ledge animations, turning around quickly and then looking up or down will make Sonic do his animation facing either towards the screen or away from it.

Looking up or down... doesn't actually make you look up or down.

#11 User is offline Shadic 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:24 PM

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The last two loops before the final corkscrew can be glitchy. I managed to get enough momentum to jump to the peak of the first loop, even casting a shadow on the top of the loop, and fell right through it. Now I'm stuck with the camera thinking I'm somewhere behind the stage., so you can't see Sonic. Managed to get it fixed by falling off that platform and jumping to another.

#12 User is offline Nix 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:29 PM

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Oh shit, I didn't realise I posted that in this thread. Sorry about that, won't happen again... sad.png
This post has been edited by Nix: 23 June 2011 - 07:24 PM

#13 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:56 PM

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I don't get it. What's wrong in that picture?

#14 User is offline Jen 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 06:10 PM

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Overall, I absolutely loved the demo. It looks beautiful, and I really liked all the small details like the Crabmeat laughing if you run into it. Sonic's animations and his attitude are spot-on, it's a joy to see him in his classic form again after all these years :D

The physics overall aren't too bad; they're certainly much better than Sonic 4. The odd things I've noticed so far are as follows:

- The rolling feels a bit funny. Sonic doesn't build up momentum quickly enough when rolling, and I've found he uncurls and starts running quite frequently when you try to roll on loops etc (unless I'm doing something horribly wrong; I'm rolling Mega Drive style, I.e. briefly let go of the d-pad and hitting down).

- The spindash is far too powerful. There's no real need for THAT much of a boost in speed, especially when you consider that you barely have to rev it up to achieve ridiculous speeds. Also, I don't see the point of having the spindash mapped to the X button as well as the traditional "down and jump" method. Stopping, holding down and hitting the jump button was always the way to do it in 2D Sonics, why is that no so here? It's crazy that Sonic doesn't even have to stop moving in order to use the spindash now, that's very exploitable (not as exploitable as Sonic Adventure though, thank god).

- The jump feels heavy. It shouldn't be really floaty, but Sonic shouldn't feel like he weighs a ton either. There needs to be a middle ground. I'm not sure if I'm imagining things, but Sonic's jump height seems to be a little lower than it should be - when I play this game, I always feel like Sonic should be able to reach higher areas which in actual fact he can't physically jump to.

- It would be awesome if the bounce height was brought into line with the Mega Drive games. That is to say, if you jump on something from above and keep the jump button held down, Sonic should bounce back up to the height from which he jumped. A little detail, but it feels really strange to a life-long Sonic fan such as myself.

I'll have another go on this demo at some point over the next few days when I'm feeling less tired and see if I can spot anything else.
This post has been edited by Jen: 23 June 2011 - 06:12 PM

#15 User is offline OSM 

Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:00 PM

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QUOTE (ICEknight @ Jun 23 2011, 06:56 PM)
I don't get it. What's wrong in that picture?

Nothing, he was just showing off his speed run record. Why he posted it in this thread I don't know.

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