[Spatula]

Spindash is not very useful in Sonic CD because of the amount of time it takes to charge up, and because of the amount of jumping and basic platforming you have to do to navigate the levels.

[DigitalDuck]

Spindash is not very useful in Sonic CD because of the amount of time it takes to charge up, and because of the amount of jumping and basic platforming you have to do to navigate the levels.

How is this relevant? We're talking about rolljumping here.

[steveswede]

... What? No. It's like saying I prefer a game that doesn't grant me unlimited immunity to attack.

The way I see it: Play Sonic CD. Spindash. Jump, hold right. Hold down when you land. When you lose too much speed, jump, hold right. Hold down when you land.

You can complete a lot of levels... without even uncurling. Any badniks that don't fire projectiles? Congratulations, you've just been made redundant. This is the explanation I was trying to get at.

I know what you meant. I should had written down badniks aswell when I was talking about broken physics. In all honesty I don't think it's a game breaker when it comes to attacking enemies. I mean, I see the badniks in the classics really only being a quarter, maybe less of what Sonic games are about in terms of gameplay, the rest is good platforming and traps, or hazards if you want to call them that. And to be fair, most of the badniks in Sonic CD are shit, nothing more than cannon fodder. If Sonic had that spin move in Sonic 2, I honesty believe that it would barely have any effect in terms of destroying badniks easier, it will just improve platforming loads.

[Spatula]

Spindash is not very useful in Sonic CD because of the amount of time it takes to charge up, and because of the amount of jumping and basic platforming you have to do to navigate the levels.

How is this relevant? We're talking about rolljumping here.

Hey, you brought it up. Didn't notice you already covered it though. Yes it is practical to peelout and hold down to roll in Sonic CD for every situation you would normally spindash in a Sonic game.

It's not practical to peelout everywhere in Sonic CD though. The game has a lot of platforming and jumping. What that means is that you're not jumping out of a roll animation very much in Sonic CD. You're jumping out of a standing or a running animation instead, and you can control your air momentum when you do that in any Sonic game.

On another note, the inability to control your momentum when you jump out of a roll is not a hindrance to rolling in the genesis games. At least it isn't for me. I find myself in a rolling animation at least 90% of the time.

Staying a spikey ball of destruction the whole time isn't broken. That's just how you get good at Sonic games. It's not immediately obvious if you start playing Sonic after a lifetime of Megaman and Mario. Your instinct is to run and jump like a normal platform character. Realizing that you can just spindash everywhere, hold down through the loops, and jump when your roll loses momentum, and that playing that way lets you get through the game much faster... that's sort of the 'AHA!' moment.

[DigitalDuck]

...

READ MY POST AGAIN. No seriously. The Sonic CD spindash/Peelout sentence (and that's all it was) was there to say that there was another reason to run in Sonic CD. The complaint about being able to run was an aside. As for the one mention of "spindash" in the unquoted part of my post, that's not even needed. Okay, in-depth time.

In the MegaDrive games, you can only pick up speed:
a) when rolling down slopes
b) when running
c) when jumping from a run
d) with timed jumps

If you jump when your roll loses momentum, you cannot pick up speed during that jump. YOU MUST RUN, and therefore BECOME VULNERABLE, to gain speed in Sonic 1/2/3K.

In Sonic CD, if you jump when your roll loses momentum, you CAN pick up speed during that jump. Therefore, you can stay curled up for very long periods at a time with little skill involved.

You say you're in a ball 90% of the time in S1-3K. Sonic CD allows you (although you need a lot of skill in the later levels to do so) to stay in a ball 100% of the time.

THIS is what I've been saying. Forget about the spindash/Peelout rubbish, it's irrelevant.

[DimensionWarped]

It helps to have the spindash control lock because otherwise... well, otherwise you have something akin to Sonic Adventure. Holy crap the spindash was overpowered in that one.

[Spatula]

These numbers, 90% and 100%, are completely arbitrary. Nobody is going to sit down and measure how many frames of standing or running are in a video of a Sonic game.

I can say that you don't need to walk or run at any point to complete Sonic 2 or Sonic 3&Knuckles, and many speedruns demonstrate that. It's very easy to avoid running in those games and anyone can do it.

[Dude]

It helps to have the spindash control lock because otherwise... well, otherwise you have something akin to Sonic Adventure. Holy crap the spindash was overpowered in that one.

One could argue that the move's power made it unstable and unpredictable to beginning players. Personally I love the spindash in sonic adventure. It adds a whole new tier of gameplay.

However, what you could do is make the 'control lock' an infinitesimal value times a randomly generated number, effectively making it harder to just mash the button. But then again using RNG's in gameplay reduces the potential for technical gameplay, so I don't know how much I like that idea.

[DigitalDuck]

These numbers, 90% and 100%, are completely arbitrary. Nobody is going to sit down and measure how many frames of standing or running are in a video of a Sonic game.

I think you'll find 100% isn't arbitrary.

I can say that you don't need to walk or run at any point to complete Sonic 2 or Sonic 3&Knuckles, and many speedruns demonstrate that. It's very easy to avoid running in those games and anyone can do it.

But you do need to UNCURL at many points, and thus become vulnerable.

[Spatula]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there objects in Sonic CD that force you to uncurl? Springs, wheels? Are you saying all of those can be avoided?

How do you plan on hitting the Tidal Tempest boss?

[DigitalDuck]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there objects in Sonic CD that force you to uncurl? Springs, wheels? Are you saying all of those can be avoided?

How do you plan on hitting the Tidal Tempest boss?

[DimensionWarped]

I'd guess through sheer dumb luck. I've seen that boss go down in a single jump before.

[Jan Abaza]

Little late to the party, but I'd like to point out the "510 beta" of Sonic CD still features the lock...and one gets to see removing it kind of made sense, since the game is generally full of OHSHIT moments with it.

... while I could imagine this being pretty fun, rolling constantly throughout the beta, I've ran into a bug in Collision Chaos 1 where, near a random corner, a spring sent me into an infinite loop against a wall - Sonic is touching the wall, landing on the spring, getting propelled upwards and landing back down on the spring. I can't move a muscle. (I've since tried it twice and it happened both times.) Maybe this has nothing to do with it, but I definitely roll/jumped on that spring, losing control and everything before the contact.

Edit:

...for reference, this is the spot I'm talking about.

I dunno, maybe the level design got too cluttered to handle the lock properly, resulting in occasional perma-locks like these? Someone must've really liked their object placement, because while the location looks almost exactly the same, the bug doesn't happen in the final version.

This post has been edited by Jan Abaza: 07 December 2010 - 02:06 PM

[LOst]

Little late to the party, but I'd like to point out the "510 beta" of Sonic CD still features the lock...and one gets to see removing it kind of made sense, since the game is generally full of OHSHIT moments with it.

... while I could imagine this being pretty fun, rolling constantly throughout the beta, I've ran into a bug in Collision Chaos 1 where, near a random corner, a spring sent me into an infinite loop against a wall - Sonic is touching the wall, landing on the spring, getting propelled upwards and landing back down on the spring. I can't move a muscle. (I've since tried it twice and it happened both times.) Maybe this has nothing to do with it, but I definitely roll/jumped on that spring, losing control and everything before the contact.

Edit:

...for reference, this is the spot I'm talking about.

I dunno, maybe the level design got too cluttered to handle the lock properly, resulting in occasional perma-locks like these? Someone must've really liked their object placement, because while the location looks almost exactly the same, the bug doesn't happen in the final version.

Sonic CD is full of wierd layouts, so I ask anyone with time and the 510 build to find more bugs that the roll jump lock causes

[Jan Abaza]

I'd like to check up on the other beta/s (720? 920? or whatever), but I ... seem to lack those. *cough* It'd be interesting to see how far in the development they decided to can this feature though', maybe then it would be possible to figure out what kind of bug they encountered that prompted them to do it. I'm assuming they could've fixed the aforementioned Collision Chaos clusterfuck simply by removing that spring, but just maybe there's a deeper problem behind this after all.

In my personal opinion though, keeping the rolling jump lock in Sonic CD would have made a game a somewhat major pain in the ass; it'd be revered by Sonic 1 masters everywhere, but I don't believe time-warping in Metalic Madness and Wacky Workbench would've been very...fun, especially since people tend to roll after a peel-out and everything.

This post has been edited by Jan Abaza: 07 December 2010 - 06:46 PM