[Tylinos]

Okay, either Ken was really, really bad at wording that post that basically said his Echidnas had nothing to do with Archie or Sega, or he's now completely pulling things from his ass to try to cover his mistakes:

Ken Penders said:

Where do I say the characters had nothing to do with the comic? By the same token, that doesn't mean Sega or Archie had anything to do with the development of the characters or set-up that took place in the series.

The reason I ran with the KNUCKLES series as opposed to continuing as the head writer of the SONIC book is precisely because I had a blank slate to work with. There was nothing viable to make a series work until I went in and assembled the whole operation. Knuckles could have just as easily lived in the arctic at his fortress of solitude guarding the last power chip and you're still going to have to do something in order to make the character viable on an ongoing basis. The games certainly don't supply enough of anything to go beyond one 48-page special.

If people like Julie-Su, Locke, the Brotherhood of the Guardians, Lara-Le, Constable Remington, Kragok, the Dark Legion, Lien-Da and Dimitri, to say nothing of Archimedes, Harry the Cabbie, Gala-Na and Lara-Su, that's my work work they're enjoying, not something created by Sega or Archie. Nor can Ian lay claim to the material, either because he isn't allowed to do anything with it or he has yet to show a clear understanding of the characters. The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability and talent to do something well. It's just that he doesn't have the same stake in the characters that I do.

The characters and set-up can easily exist outside what people consider the Sega Universe because it literally has nothing to do with the Sega Universe as Sega itself sees it. That's what people don't seem to get.

If someone doesn't like what I do, fine. That's their choice. They should support what they like. But don't act like there isn't an audience for my characters and the world they inhabit. SONIC UNIVERSE proves that. As a Star Trek fan and someone who actually worked on the comics themselves, I attempted to launch an official Klingon series back in the 90's. The only reason Paramount wasn't sold on the idea at the time is that they didn't think anyone would be interested in a Klingon film or TV series, and if they couldn't make it work, no one could. I still believe I could have made it work, based on the response I've received over the years on my Trek work.

When I discuss what I'm up to with anyone, I never treat the other person any less than how I expect to be treated. I may not agree with you, but I don't insult or belittle anyone. And I let people have their say. All I ask for is some courtesy when engaging in the conversation. Thanks for listening.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this time that he just screwed up his wording.



EDIT: Also, something in there that made me roll my eyes:

Quote

The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast.

Ken, have you already forgotten that the reason that doesn't happen is because of Sega? And was that a "My characters can beat that guy; I know it because I made them!" ? Really?

This post has been edited by Tylinos: 06 January 2012 - 04:23 AM

[FeliciaVal]

wow just...wow. I'm right now either amazed at how stupid this guy can be, and how things can get out of context. I don't really know. Mixed feelings everywhere.
And wtf...not echidnas? really?...do we need a new pair of glasses or what? :/ because I don't really see resemblance to anything else but echidnas there...

[TheKazeblade]

I can understand having personal stake in characters you created. I can also understand becoming attached to a story and cast of characters you developed with basically no restrictions, but really? Turning it into my villain can beat up your villain thing? Just a liiiiiiiitle bit petty. Additionally, what the heck is drawing him to these characters as opposed to creating new ones not based on an existing IP? Lone protector of a magic maguffin pulled into a long standing family feud between magic and technology is a pretty broad premise that can be applied to non-anthropomorphic insectivores. Heck, Penders may even be able to pull it off so long as he keeps away from nonsense sayings and stupid slang that is in almost all of his Sonic writing.

[Mystical Ninja]

Quote

The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability and talent to do something well. It's just that he doesn't have the same stake in the characters that I do.

I stopped reading here. Is it me, or does anyone else think that this sounds downright egotistical?

[MastaSys]

Quote

The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability and talent to do something well. It's just that he doesn't have the same stake in the characters that I do.

Quote

Eggman in any incarnation

Even including SatamBased's Robotnik? The guy getting crazier and crazier as time passes on. XD

This post has been edited by MastaSys: 06 January 2012 - 10:27 AM

[Herm the Germ]

So, why doesn't he approach Paramount or IDW or someone about his idea with the Klingons, considering there IS a huge market for them nowadays?

[FeliciaVal]

Mystical Ninja, on 06 January 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Quote

The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability and talent to do something well. It's just that he doesn't have the same stake in the characters that I do.

I stopped reading here. Is it me, or does anyone else think that this sounds downright egotistical?

for me it sounds like a 'godmod-sue' :/ but yes, egoistical as well.

[Aquaslash]

Quote

Nor can Ian lay claim to the material, either because he isn't allowed to do anything with it or he has yet to show a clear understanding of the characters.

I like how he says this:

Quote

The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast.

And then turns right around and shows he doesn't have a "clear understanding" of Eggman at all. It also shows that he's totally not been keeping up with things and how the DL being Eggman's pawns makes complete sense.

[Lanzer]

Herm the Germ, on 06 January 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

So, why doesn't he approach Paramount or IDW or someone about his idea with the Klingons, considering there IS a huge market for them nowadays?

What and ruin all this fun hes having being laughed at by the Sonic fanbase and waiting for his legal ass kicking by SEGA?!

[Vendettagainst]

They should just say fuck it and do what every comic does, a reboot!

Sonic: Day One, anyone?

[Metal Man88]

Ken Penders is much like some bad roleplayers I've seen. Unable to adapt to having to make new characters, they use the old ones. Even if it defies all sense and they wind up having to do stupid things to do it, like seen here. They have the same opinions he does, too—that their characters are superior and unreplacable.

It's much easier to just make an Expy of these characters in a different format, or, heck, mix things up and start over fresh.

[Tylinos]

Here's a rather good post not from Penders that I normally wouldn't repost, but one of the mods on Penders' forum has threatened to ban him for insulting Penders, and I get the feeling that means his posts will be deleted as well, so I'm reposting in case that happens:

KaosuReido said:

Ken Penders said:

Antarctic Deity said:

How many times have you been proud to say you've never read a single issue past your reign? No, fans whining to you doesn't count as a full and unbiased view on the matter.

I don't have to base my opinion on anything fans post. I can easily sum up my opinion on three words -- Dark Egg Legion. Hoo boy. Shows a complete lack of understanding how to handle the characters if that's how they're incorporated in the current mythos.

Besides, Ian himself has posted that Archie and Sega would rather he focus on the core cast than anything I developed, which is why he shoved so much of it aside.

My point with SONIC UNIVERSE is that the spotlight isn't on the headliners, which pretty much answers how I can do a book using everyone but Knuckles. Whether or not you think my work has an audience is immaterial to the discussion.

Ah, but you completely dodged the question there, didn't you? He didn't ask you what your opinion was based on hearsay. He asked why you feel that you can tell others their criticism is invalid for not reading your (unpublished) works, when you are criticizing works you yourself haven't read. Your opinion isn't in question here, it's the fact that you are a hypocrite.

Oh, and, the Dark Egg Legion makes a lot more sense than Echidnas being the most powerful force on the entire planet, and yet still having never done anything to clean it up. You never did answer why Echidnas were so special in the comic, did you? An entire civilization, centuries more advanced than anyone else even after they "abandoned" their tech (with it returning as early as their very first appearance), and they're stymied by... what? Dingos? An even more advanced arm of their own family? What keeps them from just wiping out Eggman, beyond the simple fact that they're lazy?

Now, see, THAT would be a story arc. The Echidnas being shown as flawed, lazy, egotistical hypocrites. However, it was never written that way. They were portrayed as the most powerful force on the planet, and that it was their birthright, and how DARE anyone suggest otherwise. Are you going to suggest Robotnik was beneath them? I mean, that's a little odd when he took over an entire planet in ten years, and has invaded their island multiple times. I guess he's not an Echidna, though, so he's worthless by default.

So, when the time came to try to thrust your future as canon, you didn't even try to explain it. Knuckles literally handwaved him away, so you didn't have to explain why the rest of the world couldn't seem to do it if he was so unimportant. Sure, you can claim you did something great by convincing Sega to let you get rid of Robotnik for 25 issues, but who cares? Literally making a villain you don't like disappear isn't an act of good writing, and you did it TWICE. Endgame and 25YL. The first time it appeared to be hubris, but then you did the exact same "well whatever" handwave to get rid of him again. YEARS after the fact. That long, and you still hadn't come up with anything to do with him?

At that point, it's pretty obvious, you don't care about the Sonic mythos at all. You don't even care about the Knuckles mythos, where they match with Sega. You care about the little world you had to keep running on author fiat, because the comic wasn't about it at all. In that case, why would you even try to recreate it like this? You could easily just separate the Sega elements from your own entirely, since yours don't even connect at all. No one would care.

The issue, of course, is that then it wouldn't sell. No one would care. So, you're trying to keep what you can that you didn't originate; the design of Echidnas, the concept of the floating island, the designation of Guardian (something Sega had applied to Knuckles in the past), and hey, look at this, characters and stories too. Unless Knuckles has mysteriously died in a freak accident and somehow is never referred to by name ("Dad", "Your father", "That Guardian"), you can't use him. He's never been yours, ever. Plus the rest of the Sonic world can't be used, either. Everything has to take place on this island, floating in the sky. Completely disconnected from everything it would have had in the past. You have to write in a little bubble, to keep from stepping on toes. All to make sure that Sega won't have even more legal recourse to swoop in and slap you down.

For what, though? Why would you do that to yourself? The possible added money from sales due to the connections aren't worth the legal bills and hassle. You're poisoning your career over something as petty as a ten year old comic most people only remember as "that Knuckles thing". As I said before, the only thing I can see happening from this is you're looking for a settlement. You want Archie and Sega to throw up their hands, and give you something to make you just go away. Of course, if they don't agree to that, you're pretty much done for. Whether or not you are technically correct with regards to legal status, these are large companies. If they want to, they will roll you over. Oh sure, it'll cost them more than it would to hand you a settlement, but that's not guaranteed. They could just keep throwing lawyers and appeals your way every time you try to take a step.

So, why do you think a multitude of people think you're a jerk, despite you being the underdog against a big corporation? It's because you treat everyone like they're beneath you, you skip answering the questions that people want to know, you badmouth things you've admitted you've never read, and you frankly just come off like a jackass all the time. You know how Frank Miller's work can generally be summed up with "WHORES WHORES WHORES" these days? You're "ECHIDNAS ECHIDNAS ECHIDNAS" and that's all anyone really remembers you for now. This is very much not changing that; it's clinging to the past as hard as you can, trying to make it work again about 14 years too late. I loved the Knuckles comics back in the day; I reread those story arcs over and over. Going back to them now, though, they're crap. They have plot holes, they have Mary Sues everywhere, and they are completely disconnected from the rest of the world. You want to go back to that, to the crap I liked when I was 10. Well, I'm quite a bit older now. As are the rest of the people who loved your work back when they didn't know better. That crap doesn't cut it anymore, and you of all people should know that.

This post has been edited by Tylinos: 07 January 2012 - 03:11 PM

[Ayu Tsukimiya]

Tylinos, on 06 January 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

Quote

The Dark Legion I know, especially Lien-Da, would've had Eggman in any incarnation for breakfast.

Ken, have you already forgotten that the reason that doesn't happen is because of Sega? And was that a "My characters can beat that guy; I know it because I made them!" ? Really?

God damn, he belongs on Deviantart. All he does is pretty much shout ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL at Sega and Archie.

EDIT: GODDAMN, KaosuReido is my hero right now.

This post has been edited by Ayu Tsukimiya: 06 January 2012 - 09:41 PM

[Aquaslash]

Wow, that post was amazing and brilliantly executed. I think Ken's far too deep in it to turn around now though. He's dug his grave, and it's getting to be time for him to lie in it.

[Lobotomy]

This guy. This fuckin' guy. Hahaha. I really hope he doesn't stop.