[Shadix]

Okay, I think you guys are missing the point. This is not about "theories" regarding the Chaos Emeralds; this is what the game's Japanese manual actually said, which is the closest thing to series story canon there is outside of observation when it comes to the first three games. They're certainly more official than the contrived bullshit from the US manual, anyway.

So the debate is not really what happened—the manual says what happened. The discussion should be about whether or not this seems like a plausible conclusion to reach, as well as if the idea of the Emeralds powering up around the Master Emerald is plausible. This fanfiction fanwankery has absolutely no basis in anything and should be omitted from the discussion.

Well, I'm thinking that any official source trying to draw connections between the old games and the new ones is pretty wanky too. Like I understand why they are doing it, but I don't believe when they made Sonic Adventure they were thinking of any sort of continuity. I believe that moreso any connections drawn, official or otherwise, were either tacked on after the fact or by people not directly involved in the actual development.

Japanese people can make mistakes too.

This post has been edited by Shadix: 29 January 2010 - 03:33 AM

[Jayextee]

Okay, I think you guys are missing the point. This is not about "theories" regarding the Chaos Emeralds; this is what the game's Japanese manual actually said, which is the closest thing to series story canon there is outside of observation when it comes to the first three games. They're certainly more official than the contrived bullshit from the US manual, anyway.

So the debate is not really what happened—the manual says what happened. The discussion should be about whether or not this seems like a plausible conclusion to reach, as well as if the idea of the Emeralds powering up around the Master Emerald is plausible. This fanfiction fanwankery has absolutely no basis in anything and should be omitted from the discussion.

Well, I'm thinking that any official source trying to draw connections between the old games and the new ones is pretty wanky too.

So even the official word from Sega isn't to be taken as the official word on this?



Yeah, worth a trashed post.

[OSM]

How about every island/location/game has their own set of Chaos/Super Emeralds, and they're not meant to be consistent from game to game?

This is what I always believed to be the case.

[Azu]

I've always believed that the Super Emerald were just evolved forms of the Chaos Emeralds or just dormant bigger Chaos Emeralds that awakened when the Chaos Emeralds where present. As to why the Emeralds looks like the Super Emeralds in the present games is because the emeralds where always brilliant cut and emerald but in S3DB (and the Time Stones would be marquise cut I suppose but that irrelevant)

I've always believe that the Super Emerald where just evolved forums to the Chaos Emeralds or just dormant bigger Chaos Emeralds that awakened when the Chaos Emeralds where present. As to why the Emeralds lows like the Super Emeralds in the present games is because the emeralds where always brilliant cut ans emerald but in S3DB.

Of course, Sega/Sonic Team could always change the story on us (though I doubt they would) say and what DigitalDuck said.

This post has been edited by Azu: 29 January 2010 - 04:18 AM

[Caitlin]

All of the Chaos Emerald sets are the same. They just show up in random places where Sonic is, or he loses them somehow (ask Samus or Megaman how that happens). Then he finds them again. They exist purely for flair. The Super Emeralds are separate entities. They also exist for flare.

At least that's what I think. Maybe cause I don't delve deeply and rack my brain trying to figure what everything in a video game means, I dunno. They're not too special, and the fact that they turn you yellow when you suck on their energy is good enough for me.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

As much as I want there to be an official explaination for this, I'm still a proponent that SA-onwards are in a different continuity and that trying to draw connections to the original games isn't really plausible.

Doesn't that strike you as a little intellectually lazy?

Occam's Razer is going to cut you to ribbons for this. They apparently don't vanish after every game because Sonic still had the Westside Island Emeralds when he arrived on Angel Island.

You don't appear to understand what Occam's Razor IS. "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", - that is, "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".
Last time I checked, 14 is a multiple of 7. YOU'RE the one suggesting 2 sets of Emeralds where 1 will do the job quite adequately.

I guess the best defence that there's only one set is that S3&K was the only game to ever even imply that there are more than 7. As I said before, the bulk of the evidence from the sum total of games points overwhelmingly to 7. The fact that they change colour / shape / size on occasion should be of no concern to anyone; they're CHAOS Emeralds and clearly aren't made out of anything so tawdry as standard matter, so to expect their physical properties and behaviour to be consistent isn't... reasonable.

Frozen Nitrogen once gave this great explanation in one of his stories about how since the chaos emeralds are unstable and scatter, they're like the shapes of this hyperdimensional whatever it was, and the rings were like the edges that kept everything stable.

Ah, non-Euclidian tomography in hemi-integer dimensional spaces. I'm heartened that someone remembers my crazed rambling on tesseracts!

[MastaSys]

I will just ask one thing.

If they are two separate sets (Chaos & Super), why in the game they never appear together?
And when do just bring like 2 Chaos Emeralds to the altar why just appear the respective 2 Super?
And when you got more Chaos after that the ones you brought to the altar don't appear in the score screen of the special stage but still count as yours, why that? (interpreting from the message, you got all chaos emeralds, now *name* can go to hidden palace.)

The gameplay makes the player interpret that the two sets are in fact the same. just one version is the powered up version, possibly by the Master Emerald (hence the name)

And the continuity of Classic Sonic-Modern Sonic, I don't know why I believe it's the same.
Maybe because even with the contradictions like the size of Angel Island (that is a plot hole that can be easily fixed), things like Amy remember her kidnapping caused by Metal Sonic or the "new" Eggman Empire symbol represents Dr. Robotnik in his old clothes (in Sonic Adventure) make me believe so, but I think this one is more like an personal stance.

And just to remember here, (regarding a comment here about time travel), Time travel was only used in Little Planet, an "Mythology-like" moon that only appear in X Years to X Years over a lake.

[Phos]

You don't appear to understand what Occam's Razor IS. "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", - that is, "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".
Last time I checked, 14 is a multiple of 7. YOU'RE the one suggesting 2 sets of Emeralds where 1 will do the job quite adequately.

Is this a joke?

I guess the best defence that there's only one set is that S3&K was the only game to ever even imply that there are more than 7. As I said before, the bulk of the evidence from the sum total of games points overwhelmingly to 7. The fact that they change colour / shape / size on occasion should be of no concern to anyone; they're CHAOS Emeralds and clearly aren't made out of anything so tawdry as standard matter, so to expect their physical properties and behaviour to be consistent isn't... reasonable.

I don't particularly care about implications when events that take place concurrently during Sonic 3 could not have taken place concurrently had there been only one set of emeralds. I Also don't consider later games to be representative of earlier games. If Sonic's amazing goldeneye ripoff adventure wants to only have seven emeralds, it can have fun with that but I don't care.

As for the emeralds changing because they're oooooh Chaos Emeralds... The set from Sonic 1 had a different appearence and properties compared to those in Sonic 2. It follows that they are a different set. The emeralds that Sonic has with him at the start of Sonic 3 have the same properties and a similar appearence to those he had at the end of Sonic 2, so these are clearly the same. The emeralds he collects during Sonic 3 are different again in appearence but have the same properties. My theory simply assumes these as different emeralds, something that I have evidence to show for, your theory assumes them to change shape, randomly vanish, be erronously mentioned in the manual as being guarded by Knuckles, that events depected in cut scenes shouldn't be taken as cannon, and still
doesn't account for the events in Launch Base. My theory also neatly explains why the Chaos Emeralds seen in Adventure look like the super emeralds (they are the super emeralds, but chaos emeralds is a cooler name and still properly describes them), and why the Master Emerald spontaniously combined them (they used to be together anyway), leaving them in a lower energy state (this is how chemical reactions work) that needed to be rexcited.

[phoenixwright7]

as well as if the idea of the Emeralds powering up around the Master Emerald is plausible.

Considering that we see the emeralds lift up into the air, and then a beam of light strikes 7 platforms creating the Super Emeralds, yeah, I'd say it's plausible. Why something like this doesn't happen in any other game that features the Master Emerald is up to speculation/fanfiction. Maybe it has something to do with the Hidden Palace Zone itself *shrugs*

[jasonchrist]

One set per island... simple!

Sonic 1 - 6 emeralds
Sonic 2 - 7 emeralds
Sonic 3K - Knuckles twats sonic and steals the 7 from Sonic 2, Sonic says "fuck you then, I'm taking YOUR seven!" which look different. Also keep in mind that the floating island would not be floating if Knuckles emeralds were missing.

[Neo]

Okay, I think you guys are missing the point. This is not about "theories" regarding the Chaos Emeralds; this is what the game's Japanese manual actually said, which is the closest thing to series story canon there is outside of observation when it comes to the first three games. They're certainly more official than the contrived bullshit from the US manual, anyway.

So the debate is not really what happened—the manual says what happened. The discussion should be about whether or not this seems like a plausible conclusion to reach, as well as if the idea of the Emeralds powering up around the Master Emerald is plausible. This fanfiction fanwankery has absolutely no basis in anything and should be omitted from the discussion.

BUT MAYBE THOSE CHAOS EMERALDS THAT I BROUGHT BACK WITH ME HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING

[The KKM]

The way I see it, it is simply being constantly retcon'd.

Sonic 1- 6 emeralds.

Sonic 2- 7 emeralds

Sonic 3K- 7 emeralds, BUT WAIT KNUCKLES AHS ALWAYS BEEN THEIR GUARDIAN how did they appear on sonic 1 SHUSH. Super Emeralds were retcon'd out of history as they only existed for the purposes of connecting the two games. Either that or they are a reaction to the Master Emerald.

Sonic CD- Time Stones lol

Sonic Championship- 8 emeralds

Sonic Adventure- 7 emeralds. "but in the past they are huge" DON'T THINK ON IT. Chaos is their God

Sonic Adventure 2- 7 emeralds, a giant space cannon in space was built using them as an engine

Sonic Heroes- 7 emeralds

Shadow the Hedgehog- 7 emeralds, an ancient alien has wanted them ever since 4000 years ago

Sonic Battle- 7 emeralds broken into pieces, ancient robots eat them

Sonic Riders 1 and 2- 7 emeralds that everyone seems to find easily

Sonic 2006- 7 Deus ex Machina that are laying around and make people come to life

Sonic Unleashed- remember when we said Chaos was their god well that's bull they are actually powered by gaia whom we never heard anything of and they have these huge temples that we never heard anything of.

It seems to me this is simply too inconsistent, so I follow what ends up the majority. Knuckles was never the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds, just the Master Emerald, but when Sonic comes in with the emeralds his people had used before gets them. There are 7 emeralds, and a Master Emerald. If we want a bit of that old school flair, the Gray Emerald controls all. Chaos is a mutated Chao, and the Emeralds are actually fuelled by Gaia. They love to scatter around to magically appear when people need them. THE END :D

[SonikkuForever]

Wait, why are we trying to make sense of Sonic again?

[Elratauru]

The way I see it, it is simply being constantly retcon'd.

It seems to me this is simply too inconsistent, so I follow what ends up the majority. Knuckles was never the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds, just the Master Emerald, but when Sonic comes in with the emeralds his people had used before gets them. There are 7 emeralds, and a Master Emerald. If we want a bit of that old school flair, the Gray Emerald controls all. Chaos is a mutated Chao, and the Emeralds are actually fuelled by Gaia. They love to scatter around to magically appear when people need them. THE END :D

You forgot about 3D blast, but yeah. That's true.

[Neoblast]

Hidden palace is empty until sonic takes the emeralds there and then they turn super emeralds...
Those emeralds ( the ones sonic got after being stolen by knuckles ) are the same knuckles steal in the beggining of sonic 3, hence the ones in sonic 2, that might have been in angel island in ancient times but after that they scattered all over mobius. So... I think it's one set...
Knuckles probably put them in special stages after stealing them...