[Glisp]

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

C. I'm all for the 2P Knuckles change, Bear this in mind though, I believe that one of the reasons this got scrapped, was because there was no real way the player could use it to his advantage in the 2P race mode. I could be wrong, but I think that was part of the reason why. So it'll be a nice touch, but it would do little to affect the 2P gameplay.

Was there much point in tails being able to fly in 2 player mode? No, not really, but it's there lol.

[KingofHarts]

Glisp, on 22 March 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

C. I'm all for the 2P Knuckles change, Bear this in mind though, I believe that one of the reasons this got scrapped, was because there was no real way the player could use it to his advantage in the 2P race mode. I could be wrong, but I think that was part of the reason why. So it'll be a nice touch, but it would do little to affect the 2P gameplay.

Was there much point in tails being able to fly in 2 player mode? No, not really, but it's there lol.

Well by that logic, it should be put in. As I stated, I'm all for the addon. I was simply bringing up an argument against bothering to take the time to add it.
BTW I used Tails flying to assist me in 2P. You could argue that gliding could help also, but I guess we will have to see for ourselves if it gets added... I'm just so used to not having it that I don't think the abilities would help in a race but I could very well be wrong.

[SoNick]

...why are you all talking as if it's up to you to decide what goes into the hack and what doesn't?
Aside from a few glints of intelligence, these past few pages have been PAINFUL to read.

I also must say that you're all over-thinking the Mushroom Hill - Sandopolis transition; there's a cliff at the end to jump off of and you fall into Sandopolis. After hitting the capsule Sonic/Tails/Knuckles runs forward and hops off of the cliff, leading into the existing Sandopolis opening transition.
This solution is simple, requires little to no actual code, and it makes sense.

[KingofHarts]

We were all simply making suggestions of things we think would work, all of while understanding that if Tiddles wanted, he could, and has every right to, tell us to piss off and wait for the release and shut up. But he, along with most people working on projects like this, doesn't do that... Instead opting to hear us out. Some things he likes, and MAYBE gets considered, while others... Not so much. I think it's safe to say he appreciates our input, so as to know what the fans would like to see in a hack, especially considering he's implemented many of those ideas... AND gone through the extra trouble of making patches to accommodate all of us completely... Something which I believe hasn't been done before, with the exception of the now canceled Sonic 3 Customizable. So, with all due respect, where you get off saying we can't give our opinion... Is lost on me. Unless Tiddles himself tells us to back off, I'm sure the input is welcome.

Rant over. My apologies to anyone bothered by this extra, slightly off topic post.

[DTX]

Actually, Knuckles isn't just a red knockoff of Sonic in Competition Mode, his jump height (I think) was a little lower (which would be consistent with 1 Player Mode anyway), his max speed was lower, and his acceleration was (if I'm not mistaken) slightly higher.

Also, in regard to Miles, his double-jump could be used as something of a glide in this mode, which could save time depending on how you used it, on what stages and when. And on Balloon Park, his Flight ability could be used right after falling through the gap between the two "elephant trunks" and landing on the flooring below; instead of having to run and jump just right to get onto that yellow balloon (or Spin Dash just right,) Miles could run, jump (early), fly up a little, and land onto the yellow balloon. The difference? He bounces up extra high off that yellow balloon while flying. If I remember right, you can shave off about a second if you land on it like that and then quickly swerve left then right.

Just throwing that out there.

Although I admit Knuckles's lack of a glide irked me too. And I really did not see the point of giving both Sonic and Knuckles the Insta-Shield ability if it, other than making a cool sound effect when "used", was completely useless.

This post has been edited by DTX: 23 March 2012 - 12:44 AM

[Effexor]

Thinking about the Mushroom Hill -> Sandopolis transition, how about if Sonic/Tails grab on to Robotnik's Egg-o-matic instead of the Flying Battery which wouldn't exist. You could make it so Robotnik's going a bit slower to allow Sonic and Tails to catch up at the cliff and when they latch on, he starts speeding off. Then at the begining of Sandopolis, along with Sonic and Tails falling to the sand below, we could see Robotnik quickly flying away for a brief moment. Basically, it'd be this:

Mushroom Hill
- End of act, yay
- No Flying Battery to be found
- Robotnik's vehicle starts making its beeping noise, Sonic and Tails look up
- Robotnik's having trouble getting the thing up to full speed ad he just rammed it back first into a tree
- Sonic and Tails rush to the cliff edge much like the original
- They both jump up and hold on to Robotnik's vehicle as it finally picks up speed
- Transition to Sandopolis

Sandopolis
- Title card
- Sonic and Tails seen falling like normal
- Robotnik can be seen flying away as they fall

[KingofHarts]

Effexor, on 23 March 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Thinking about the Mushroom Hill -> Sandopolis transition, how about if Sonic/Tails grab on to Robotnik's Egg-o-matic instead of the Flying Battery which wouldn't exist. You could make it so Robotnik's going a bit slower to allow Sonic and Tails to catch up at the cliff and when they latch on, he starts speeding off. Then at the begining of Sandopolis, along with Sonic and Tails falling to the sand below, we could see Robotnik quickly flying away for a brief moment. Basically, it'd be this:

Mushroom Hill
- End of act, yay
- No Flying Battery to be found
- Robotnik's vehicle starts making its beeping noise, Sonic and Tails look up
- Robotnik's having trouble getting the thing up to full speed ad he just rammed it back first into a tree
- Sonic and Tails rush to the cliff edge much like the original
- They both jump up and hold on to Robotnik's vehicle as it finally picks up speed
- Transition to Sandopolis

Sandopolis
- Title card
- Sonic and Tails seen falling like normal
- Robotnik can be seen flying away as they fall

Sounds like a logical quick fix to me. All of this, however, raises one other question. I believe Tiddles stated had no intention of taking FBZ out of Knuckles story. I wonder where this would leave FBZ for Knuckles... It's all really complicated, and as much as I'd love the level order swap... it really does complicate things no matter what you do, and it almost would be best to leave it as is... There is the fact, however, that if you look at the level layout... it's really only meant for Sonic and/or Tails to play through. Knuckles CAN take Tails' paths by gliding/climbing, but there is NOTHING in that zone that stands out to me as being designed for him... so I wonder...

[Knucklez]

Truth is, I grew up playing the S&K Collection version of S3&K so.. I was used to FM Synthesized Soundtrack that IMHO was a better rendition of the original MegaDrive Soundtrack.

One really irritating thing I always noticed is how Sky Sanctuary's music always fades every instance you collect rings, like the main chords that play which define the song all in itself. The sound of rings being collected plays over the high chords, making them fade into the background, and slowly fade back into play once you stop collecting rings. I don't know the technical aspects behind why this would be happening, but it's the only time it happens in any stage, and only of course while playing as Sonic and/or Tails. I immediately noticed it when I played the MD version for the first time over a year ago, because I always played the PC version prior to it, which didn't have this sound-overlapping issue. The PC and Saturn ports of the game had numerous sound fixes, which included this one, so yeah.. finding out the problem and getting it fixed would be most appreciated.

Here's what it sounds like if you take a good listen, especially early in the level where you hit numerous rings:



The PC and Saturn version are the same in that they fixed the problem, only difference is their version of the SSZ theme, but here's the Saturn version to compare to the MD version:



It would make all the difference.. it really would.

And just for the hell of it, check out the PC version of the theme I prefer over the original. Mind you, avoid the General MIDI formats cause they're horrific. FM Synthesized is the way to go, which is why I wish someone could make the SMPS for Tiddles to implement the soundtrack.

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 23 March 2012 - 11:21 AM

[DalekSam]

Knucklez: About the ring muting, this is a limitation of the Mega Drive hardware and nothing else. The ring SFX overlaps the music due to being on the same channel. Obviously, this isn't there on the Saturn version due to streamed music and what appears to be wave audio for SFX.

[Knucklez]

DalekSam, on 23 March 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Knucklez: About the ring muting, this is a limitation of the Mega Drive hardware and nothing else. The ring SFX overlaps the music due to being on the same channel. Obviously, this isn't there on the Saturn version due to streamed music and what appears to be wave audio for SFX.

Ok so it's a limitation, and it only occurs in SSZ. I'm not too tech savvy but I'm assuming that since every other level runs just fine, then is it safe to assume that each of them run their music and SFX on seperate channels? And if so, would it be possible to add channels for SSZ to function like every other level?

[That One Jig]

Knucklez, on 23 March 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Ok so it's a limitation, and it only occurs in SSZ. I'm not too tech savvy but I'm assuming that since every other level runs just fine, then is it safe to assume that each of them run their music and SFX on seperate channels? And if so, would it be possible to add channels for SSZ to function like every other level?

Actually this "effect" can be noticed in every zone. If you're collecting several rings in rapid succession in a zone, try putting your ear right up to the speaker. That's the only way you'll hear the noise cancellation in the tune in other zones. It just isn't near as noticeable anywhere else because of instrument in use and the very high pitch it is playing at.

So, no, they don't play on separate channels in other zones. If they could, don't you think Sonic Team would've done that?

[DTX]

Sonic Team? I thought S.T.I. was in charge of developing Sonic 3 (& Knuckles).

Knucklez, on 23 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Truth is, I grew up playing the S&K Collection version of S3&K so.. I was used to FM Synthesized Soundtrack that IMHO was a better rendition of the original MegaDrive Soundtrack.

This is true for me as well. Well, technically I briefly played Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles (and Knuckles in Sonic 2, though that's a bit irrelevant) back in the day, shortly before my family sold the Genesis. But the version I mostly grew up with was Sonic & Knuckles Collection. And I love the S&K:C version music for Sonic 3, especially both acts of Launch Base Zone. Also, an arbitrary bit of info I'd like to share: a remix of both versions (Gen/MD ver. & S&K:C ver.) of the Competition menu music would be awesome—they surprisingly sound really good together (in an alternating, "full version" kind of way.) At least that combination sounds really cool in my head, anyway.

Knucklez, on 23 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

...[C]heck out the PC version of the theme, I prefer it over the original. Mind you, avoid the General MIDI formats cause they're horrific. FM Synthesized is the way to go, which is why I wish someone could make the SMPS for Tiddles to implement the soundtrack.

The FM Synthisizer version sounded best on a computer that had the type of soundcard typically installed onto PCs around the time S&KC came out. Or at least on my old Packard Bell (it was an e-Tower, I think) PC that ran the Windows '97 (or was it '98?) OS, the FM Synthisizer music sounded just like Genesis music. So Competition menu, CNZ Acts 1 & 2, ICZ Acts 1 & 2, LBZ Acts 1 & 2, S3 Credits, and Knuckles's S3 Theme all sounded excellently fitting, along with all the other tracks of course. If someone can indeed convert the MIDI files to SMPS format (which is above my level of expertise [as though I had a level of expertise =b ]), I hope they sound as awesome as I'm used to hearing them sounding.

This post has been edited by DTX: 24 March 2012 - 03:30 AM

[That One Jig]

DTX, on 24 March 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Sonic Team? I thought S.T.I. was in charge of developing Sonic 3 (& Knuckles).

Yeah, I guess it was them. Shouldn't have rushed that last sentence in like that, thanks for catching my error. Still, I'd think that any respectable developer would have put in the effort to make those sounds play on separate channels if it were possible.

[DTX]

That One Jig, on 24 March 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

DTX, on 24 March 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Sonic Team? I thought S.T.I. was in charge of developing Sonic 3 (& Knuckles).

Yeah, I guess it was them. Shouldn't have rushed that last sentence in like that, thanks for catching my error. Still, I'd think that any respectable developer would have put in the effort to make those sounds play on separate channels if it were possible.

Especially since (correct me if I'm wrong) Sonic & Knuckles's release wasn't as rushed as Sonic 3's. You would think they would at least do that for Sonic & Knuckles—if they could that is, which probably means they couldn't. So yeah, your point holds, and I agree with it. This is just one of the shortcomings of the Genesis.

Tangent:
Although I've always found the ring collect noise too loud anyway. Maybe adjusting its volume so it's not as loud as, let alone louder than, the game's BGMs would in part resolve this matter (at least perhaps minimally, right?).

What do you think, Tiddles? Is "quieter ring sfx" a feasible, worthwhile patch option? And while I'm at it, a "quieter jump sfx" patch option? Just thought I'd throw that suggestion out there, just in case.

This post has been edited by DTX: 24 March 2012 - 03:47 AM

[Aerosol]

Ask yourself this: Is it evident that the ring sfx were meant to be quieter? The answer to this question shall also answer your own.