[Dark Sonic]

I don't see why the cannon from CNZ wouldn't be a proficient transition to FBZ. And the door from FBZ can be the snowboard in ICZ.

But I don't know about the MHZ to SZ transition. Maybe Tails can fly Sonic away and chase after Eggman?

[KingofHarts]

Glisp, on 19 March 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Okay have a couple of bugs/debugging issues that could use fixing in any future builds.
First off, there is a place in Launch Base Zone act 2 that is the first underwater exit in Knuckles game. There is a red switch that changes the ceiling/floor (the things with the Red and Black strips that can be moved with switches). Well anyway, Super Tails' Super Flickies can hit this switch and allow Tails to access this area when he shouldn't be able to. This is in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I've tested it in this hack and the Super Flickies can still home in on this particular switch. (it's close to the end of Sonic/Tails route where the first part of Knuckles' act 2 intersects with Sonic and Tails' route from underwater.)

It's also kinda bothered me how Sonic goes to doomsday zone but tails doesn't since they have practically the same story and ending. It would make a bit more sense to have him go there by normal means but only when he gets the Super Emeralds. (as Super Tails can only be obtained with the Super Emeralds unless you count the 0517 super forms.....)

Also:
Will we be seeing these unused 2 player mode sprites in a future build? Granted, 2 player mode isn't as enjoyable as the main game, but it's always bothered me that it was never corrected, not even in retail S3K.

The previous three aren't as important to me as the 2 player Knuckles sprites unused in the Sonic 3 ROM. Always kinda annoyed me that Knuckles was just a version of Sonic with less jump height in 2 player mode. This should remedy this issue, plus I don't think it's been fixed before so you might be the first to add in these unused sprites. This would definitely make Knuckles feel like his own character in 2 player mode rather than a rip off of Sonic.

A couple notes I took on this.
A. If Glisp is mentioning the same point of LBZ that I'm thinking of, then the Super Flicky incident causes you to get stuck behind that wall, yes? cuz I do believe that is what happened to me in that area, only with Hyper Sonic and his Hyper jump... I used it to take out the 2 orbinauts, and it also triggered the wall switch, trapping me. Something else about that switch to consider...
B. I am against Tails in Doomsday Zone. I understand your logic on this, Glisp, but IMO that extra stage helps set Sonic's story apart from Tails'. I always looked at Tails' story being an Easy difficulty of sorts compared to Sonic anyway... besides, Tails is only the sidekick, Sonic is the main hero. He should be the only one who faces off against the final boss.\
C. I'm all for the 2P Knuckles change, Bear this in mind though, I believe that one of the reasons this got scrapped, was because there was no real way the player could use it to his advantage in the 2P race mode. I could be wrong, but I think that was part of the reason why. So it'll be a nice touch, but it would do little to affect the 2P gameplay.

[MastaSys]

Dark Sonic, on 20 March 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

I don't see why the cannon from CNZ wouldn't be a proficient transition to FBZ. And the door from FBZ can be the snowboard in ICZ.

Well we got a good transition in MHZ for that, that introduces well the zone as a flying ship, if it's viable to port it to CNZ would be great, but if it's too much work yeah the cannon fits it well too.

IMO, I think using the door isn't really necessary, it's not that worthy to make new snowboard sprites, just make sonic hit the board in a bigger angle to make the transition more belivable.
But if that idea it's used, (After all Naka himself talked about it) when Sonic hits the door, he grabs it in that moment, and use it as a snowboard in the air before changing zones, and then makes Sonic hit the floor already with it in ICZ Zone.

In Mushroom Hill/Valley, I think I already mentioned the wind rising (just like Knuckles' Trap) for the sake of not removing the moment Sonic goes into the sand, but Tails Grabing him is not a bad idea too.

For me in a perfect world (with optional patches or not).

Sonic 3 Complete Mode
-Sonic/Tails FBZ is located after CNZ and then it goes to ICZ after it. (Night)
-Knuckles just goes to FBZ after MHZ (Day), since his transitions don't help too much to FBZ to fit there, one of some things that implies that we wouldn't got to that Zone, and it makes possible to visit it in both "times".

S3 Alone and S&K
Just like retail.

I don't know technical details, but this seems too much work, maybe in the Saving Screen or having two versions of the same zone, I don't know.
Still I can dream :P

This post has been edited by MastaSys: 20 March 2012 - 10:01 AM

[Knucklez]

This is pretty much why I disagree with all of this. Going through all the trouble of making new transitions, sprites, or whatever else to implement something that was scrapped from the game pre-release, seems like a someone's having a bad case of OCD.

It's not like the level was scrapped entirely from the game like the half-dozen levels from Sonic 2, which were remade and put back in the game by other hackers. FBZ was just in a different order, and hell, it turned out great with a proper transition from MHZ. That's how it was officially released with Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles being two seperate games, and that's how it remained when they locked-on. Get where I'm coming from? Yes, the Sonic 3 level select had FBZ between CNZ and ICZ, and as Tiddles mentioned, there were leftovers from FBZ in the Sonic 3 game code, but if you are actually going to implement this whole thing, making it an internal patch option would be the best fit.

Like I said, how the game turned out as a finished product is the final build its makers went with that made it original all it itself. If S3C's default level order was different from that of Sonic 3 (part one) and Sonic & Knuckles, would that really make sense at all?

This whole thing seems to be about trying to stamp OFFICIAL on a game during its pre-alpha or alpha stage of release... and I do apologize if I'm annoying any of you for getting too in on this, but I'm just trying to get a serious point across.

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 20 March 2012 - 11:33 AM

[MastaSys]

Knucklez, on 20 March 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

(...)
This whole thing seems to be about trying to stamp OFFICIAL on a game during its pre-alpha or alpha stage of release... and I do apologize if I'm annoying any of you for getting too in on this, but I'm just trying to get a serious point across.

So it were the Sonic 2 sprites in Sonic 3, which we already got options to use them.
I understand your point, but if Tiddles is willing to do it in the end, as a option, it woundn't hurt, would it?

In a way this rom is backtracking some of it's "decisions" before it was broken into two, to make a "Sonic 3 Complete".
How back it goes to reach that state, it's very subjective to the preferences of anyone, nothing was set in stone before Sonic 3 (Alone) was released, I for example like the Sonic 3's Sonic, others here like Sonic 2's ones.

And as much this game is near the one officially released, some liberty and originality was used, there never was a Tails Cutscene, nor a Death Egg cutscene, nor Super Sonic playing a fast version of the level music instead of the main theme nor the way we transforms into it, etc...

It's not that big of a deal to you to be defensive, and in the end Tiddles might drop the idea anyway if he feels like it.

[KingofHarts]

Heres an unrelated idea. Can we see Knuckles and Tails together as a playable combo?

[Knucklez]

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Heres an unrelated idea. Can we see Knuckles and Tails together as a playable combo?

Wouldn't that conflict with storylines and cutscenes?

However, if they were a combo, they'd have to follow Knuckles' storyline because the Sonic & Tails specific routes are too high for him to access due to his weak jump (then again Tails could fly him up, but.. ehh). But, the obvious fact is, Knuckles is the one blowing out bridges and causing diversions for Sonic & Tails in their storylines, so who would be the one doing it if he followed Tails' storyline? Don't even dare say Sonic... Lol.

Knuckles' story would work out great except you'd have to figure out how to implement Tails into Knuckles' opening cutscene, as well as his ending cutscene after Mecha's defeat. Would Sonic still be the one flying the Tornado? Where would Tails be while Knuckles is already taking up the spot to stand on? It would seem illogical to magically have Tails fly the Tornado if he teamed up with Knuckles against Mecha. Unless it was already parked on SSZ where we couldn't initially see it.

I've thought about this combo before, it would be interesting, but the only major setback for it would be the overall storyline.

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 20 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

[DTX]

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

One thing people need to remember is how much of an overhaul needs to be done to the Sonic 3 Complete portion to make this change. Shifting the level order is probably easy enough, but you gotta add to Carnival Night Zone Act 2 at the end, possibly porting stuff over from the MVZ Act 2 end scene. THEN the harder part comes with what to do for the transition between MVZ and Sandopolis Zone... bearing in mind that it basically has to be something new and original, which will take enough time as it is to conceptualize, then even more time to put into the game. which, by the way, is not really Sonic 3-ifying the game very much, but then again I'm sure no one would bitch too much.

SO, setting my proposal aside... I ask, is it really worth it?

Why can't the airship at the end of Mushroom Hill carry Sonic* off to Sandopolis, appearing at the beginning of the latter stage? It could begin its descent, and either it would somehow jettison Sonic or instead Sonic would jump off of his own accord — maybe it would keep on flying, but Eggman would escape in his Egg Mobile, with Sonic jumping off after him, landing into the sand.

*Or whomever you play as

Knucklez, on 20 March 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Heres an unrelated idea. Can we see Knuckles and Tails together as a playable combo?

Wouldn't that conflict with storylines and cutscenes?

However, if they were a combo, they'd have to follow Knuckles' storyline because the Sonic & Tails specific routes are too high for him to access due to his weak jump (then again Tails could fly him up, but.. ehh). But, the obvious fact is, Knuckles is the one blowing out bridges and causing diversions for Sonic & Tails in their storylines, so who would be the one doing it if he followed Tails' storyline? Don't even dare say Sonic... Lol.

It could be Robotnik or an Egg Robo. Or Rouge even! (; C'mon, you know as well as I that in the first cutscene between the two of them in SA2 doesn't in any way specifically indicate that meeting as their first — it'd be by no means a complete retcon. (; (;

Besides, if you did Knuckles's storyline, you could just make it that Knuckles is suspicious against Sonic but not Tails, not realizing Tails is affiliated with Sonic.

Quote

Knuckles' story would work out great except you'd have to figure out how to implement Tails into Knuckles' opening cutscene, as well as his ending cutscene after Mecha's defeat. Would Sonic still be the one flying the Tornado? Where would Tails be while Knuckles is already taking up the spot to stand on? It would seem illogical to magically have Tails fly the Tornado if he teamed up with Knuckles against Mecha.

I'm sorry, I don't remember if Knuckles has been given an opening cutscene yet. Since this is S3C, has his MHZ cutscene been transposed to AIZ? Regardless, in regard to Tails being on his side, there could be inserted into the beginning of AIZ a Knuckles' Chaotix-esque scene/event where Knuckles fights off the Egg Robo and jumps on a Capsule/Egg Prison, freeing not only several Flickies and Cuckies but Tails as well. Then Tails would follow Knuckles into the rest of the game.

As for the ending, I would make so that both acts of Sky Sanctuary would be played; the first act will be Tails's, and the control would switch to him. After Knuckles sends out the bridge and Tails goes across, Knuckles goes back to the teleporter and warps away off-screen. You then play through Tails's act as you normally would, the act ending with the defeat of Metal Sonic v3 and Tails racing up that collapsing spiral path, jumping off at the top to the Death Egg. Then it is immediately followed up by Knuckles's SSZ act, that playing out as it normally does. The ending cutscene would show Sonic flying the Tornado to catch Knuckles, with Tails hanging onto the tail fin (using that animation he has when he's hanging onto the side of something with his body hanging back behind him [I can't remember when he uses it, though I think it's either used in WFZ or FBZ, maybe the end of MHZ].)

Dark Sonic, on 20 March 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Umm, would it matter? It'd be fun, and that's all I care about. I love seeing Tails follow Knuckles around.

Also, this. The simple answer: who cares? As long as it's Knuckles & Tails, it's automatically too awesome for continuity to matter. Though I still think Tails should be hanging onto the Tornado's tail fin at the end, for the lolz.

This post has been edited by DTX: 20 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

[Dark Sonic]

Knucklez, on 20 March 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Heres an unrelated idea. Can we see Knuckles and Tails together as a playable combo?

Wouldn't that conflict with storylines and cutscenes?

Umm would it matter? It'd be fun that's all I care about. I love seeing Tails follow Knuckles around.

[Josh]

King, on 18 March 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

I only have one suggestion for a patch if it's acceptable. To disable the Super Sonic music and not speed up the level's music - basically transform without the level's music effected. I think that'd be pretty interesting, IMO.

Tiddles addressed this a long time ago. I think his answer was something to the effect of, "I can't just have you raping the game as Super/Hyper Sonic without at least SOME small repercussion!"

[GeneHF]

Dark Sonic, on 20 March 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

I don't see why the cannon from CNZ wouldn't be a proficient transition to FBZ. And the door from FBZ can be the snowboard in ICZ.

But I don't know about the MHZ to SZ transition. Maybe Tails can fly Sonic away and chase after Eggman?

I suggested before that the character just latches on to the side of Eggman's fleeing Eggpod and is dropped off in the desert. Simple enough.

[Chimera]

Josh, on 20 March 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

King, on 18 March 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

I only have one suggestion for a patch if it's acceptable. To disable the Super Sonic music and not speed up the level's music - basically transform without the level's music effected. I think that'd be pretty interesting, IMO.

Tiddles addressed this a long time ago. I think his answer was something to the effect of, "I can't just have you raping the game as Super/Hyper Sonic without at least SOME small repercussion!"

This makes me think of how Generations' Super's were nerfed, but how they didn't have their own super music...


Aside from that, I like the whole being cannoned off into the Flying Battery Zone and then kicking off the door to the airship and using it as a snowboard as you travel down Ice Cap. Gives Sonic that same badass feel he did in Sonic Adventure 2 when he did basically the same thing, except replace airship with helicopter and Ice Cap with Central City/San Francisco. Not only that, but it makes more sense for Sonic to reach the polar caps of Angel Island by falling off a giant aircraft that could well be moving at high speeds as opposed to ONE cannon at the outskirts of the Carnival Night Zone just somehow being so powerful you can launch yourself miles away from the entire zone... and suddenly grab a snowboard.

And there's my two cents; I'm fairly certain just using the basic sprites found in Flying Battery could make a believable effect of Sonic grabbing debris in the breaking-down-while-crashing airship and using it as a snowboard, even if the only indication is a bunch of pieces of metal flying out the area of the Flying Battery that Sonic escapes and, in Ice Cap, he starts snowboarding down the snowy hills.

[KingofHarts]

Dark Sonic, on 20 March 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Knucklez, on 20 March 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

KingofHarts, on 20 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Heres an unrelated idea. Can we see Knuckles and Tails together as a playable combo?

Wouldn't that conflict with storylines and cutscenes?

Umm would it matter? It'd be fun that's all I care about. I love seeing Tails follow Knuckles around.

I would love it, plus it would open up the possibilities of this game even more. Knuckles could access more paths this way, either in his own route, or on Sonic's... with a flying sidekick... Plus to glide right into Tails' waiting arms to fly off...
I'd love this combo as a patch or something.

[King]

Josh, on 20 March 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Tiddles addressed this a long time ago. I think his answer was something to the effect of, "I can't just have you raping the game as Super/Hyper Sonic without at least SOME small repercussion!"

Hahaha. I used to be able to disable the music with 20+ Game Genie codes but not anymore due to all the changes. I personally can't stand the invincibility music anymore nor do I like the level's music sped up as I like listening to it in the original tempo but that's okay I suppose.

[Machenstein]

While we're still talking about Super form music, I'd like to make an SMPS of the Virtual Sonic rendition of the Sonic & Knuckles theme, only with a faster tempo. Where would I go to learn how to make it?