[That One Jig]

jasonchrist, on 15 March 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

How in the hell have I missed this?!

What an awesome piece of work. I once made feeble attempts to port Sonic 1/2 sprites into Sonic 3k using SonikSprite, but now someone has finally done it properly. Bravo!

Just a couple of 1/2-isms to suggest.

Sonic 1/2 Robotnik/eggpods One thing I missed was Robotnik's evil laugh whenever you took a hit. I could do some modifications to the boss machines to make them fit the old eggpods if you like.

Traditional spinners What could happen here is that you have a screen lock for an act 1 boss, and instead of the spinner falling from the air the screen is unlocked as you move forward to hit the spinner in the old-school way.

and as someone has already suggested, including some Nakamura staple tunes like 1ups, invincibilities, act clears and maybe bosses - that would be cool as well!

Thank you! I'm happy to see that my work paid off for this. I was just afraid that since this porting wasn't a 1:1 conversion process that some people might get all nitpickey. Good to see that that isn't the case. I'm still working on refinements with the sprites, especially the S1 sprite set. Getting that angry eye implemented for ya all!

I think the main problem with incorporating older Robotnik eggpods is, like you said, how they would fit into the many contraptions he pits against Sonic and co. Plus I do not know if it would go against story canon. I always thought that his original eggpod was completely destroyed after trying to escape from Final Zone back in Sonic 1, and that his S2 eggpod, which he had "parked" in the original Death Egg, met a similar fate. It's not really the same as changing Sonic's sprites; although S3K interpreted it differently, each game modeled the hedgehog off of what the concept art depicted. It was all the same classic Sonic. Robotnik's machines, on the other hand, reflect new designs of his own after repeated failed attempts, all with the intent to be better than the previous one.

I would like to see his evil laugh re-implemented, though! That's one of the few things that kind of let me down with the original S3K, but I kind of just got used to.

Classic signposts might become a possible old-school feature in the future, but it would take some time to not only implement them, but determine what would happen to those in-between act transitions. Would they still be there, or would the screen fade out and fade back in to the title card for the next act? It all depends on what Tiddles decides to do about it, IF he does anything about it at all.

And the Nakamura themes would require extra thought, especially considering the music bank limitations. There aren't enough free spots to store all the old-school themes, so something creative would need to be done about that. Plus someone would need to compose new title screen and invincibility themes for the game based off the older two; these two themes were different between S1 and S2, so it would make sense that it was the same case for S3(Complete). Finally, it would leave a particular dilemma: would it be necessary to include Nakamura's name in the end credits?

Knucklez, on 14 March 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

- Implementing proper Knuckles *falling* sprites. The back and forth flickering of the closed-eyes/open-eyes sprite animation during Knuckles' LBZ transition falling to Mushroom Valley seems visually incomplete in terms of smooth animation, which Sonic and Tails both seem to have.

- Implementing exhaust flames to the Tornado during the Hyper Sonic/Super Tails pre-credits cutscene when they're flying through Angel Island after returning the Master Emerald would make sense since it's the only instance the Tornado seems to lack the animation. Here is the original and a mockup of the animation, along with Sonic's green color problem fixed.

Original: Fix:

Firstly, as Neo said, Knuckles is likely using an animation meant for only Sonic and Tails. It should just be because there's an actual entry for a two-sprite "sliding" animation when there shouldn't be one in the first place for Knuckles. So it should be a relatively simple fix.

Second, I also caught on to Sonic's strange green pixels on those sprites. I asked Tiddles awhile back about them, and he determined that they were meant to serve as an early form of anti-aliasing. Since players would be experiencing S3K on their CRT TVs instead pixel-perfect emulators, the green would actually help accentuate Sonic's shape with a smaller sprite. It didn't seem to pay off. It's an easy "fix", though: just replace the green with the same black that Sonic always uses in game.

And finally, I never noticed that the Tornado didn't have exhaust fumes in that last scene before the credits. I guess I was always either too busy looking at Knuckles and the Master Emerald, or just doing something else. Perhaps Sonic and Tails are just taking one last slow cruise around Angel Island. Unless this is due to sprite count issues, I don't see why this couldn't be amended.

This post has been edited by That One Jig: 15 March 2012 - 12:18 PM

[dsrb]

Neo, on 15 March 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

All the way since Sonic 1, Sonic (and Tails) have a one-frame hurt animation, and a two-frame sliding animation, in which the first frame is shared with the hurt animation. This is also true in Sonic 3.

Interestingly enough, in fellow super-hack Sonic 2 Heroes, Sonic (and only Sonic) uses the two-frame sliding animation for the hurt state, too.

This post has been edited by dsrb: 15 March 2012 - 02:46 PM

[Glisp]

Edit: Nevermind, just found the online Customizer. You guys are awesome. =P

This post has been edited by Glisp: 15 March 2012 - 03:47 PM

[Effexor]

Speaking of colors, is it possible to make Robotnik in Sonic's Hidden Palace not cause everything to flash white when you hit him?

[Metal Man88]

I haven't had time to read the whole topic, but I wonder if Knuckles in FBZ2 could finally get a proper Eggrobo version of that boss that shows up there?

[dsrb]

It did, ages ago.

[Knucklez]

Neo, on 15 March 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Knucklez, on 14 March 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

But that hole is supposed to be there! That's the hole Knuckles uses to reach his boss arena. Sonic can't reach it because the building hasn't been demolished yet. You could argue that the hole was only created when Knuckles' bomb exploded but... isn't this being a bit too nitpicky?

You're right, I used Debug mode to check and it is the entrance to Knuckles' boss arena. Being too nitpicky isn't a bad thing though, it can mean the difference between taking care of a possible flaw, or leaving it to remain for all see.. I hope you catch my drift. I have a thing for making something come as close to perfect as possible, and as far as this hack has come, the list of imperfections gets smaller and smaller after every release. So it's best to nitpick anything that might need a fix, so good ol' Tiddles doesn't run out stuff to do.

[Tiddles]

I see Knuckles' post LBZ2 falling animation the opposite way.

If this had been designed for Sonic/Tails to have two frames, it would just use the standard fall animation setting, which would give them two frames but Knuckles one, as in the beginning of MGZ/MHZ. It appears that this particular instance has been deliberately set up to flip between the two states, which would only make sense for Knuckles, and I suspect was intended to give something a little more dynamic than his usual fall/hurt animations... daft as it might end up looking.

Robotnik dropping the Master Emerald for Tails in DEZ is also not an oversight. There's no Doomsday for him to get it back, so I left everything the original S3K way for Tails, so at least it's reasonably consistent within the context of his own story.

[KingofHarts]

That One Jig, on 15 March 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

And the Nakamura themes would require extra thought, especially considering the music bank limitations. There aren't enough free spots to store all the old-school themes, so something creative would need to be done about that. Plus someone would need to compose new title screen and invincibility themes for the game based off the older two; these two themes were different between S1 and S2, so it would make sense that it was the same case for S3(Complete). Finally, it would leave a particular dilemma: would it be necessary to include Nakamura's name in the end credits?

Perhaps an MP3 patch in similar fashion to Sonic 1 SAGE 2010 Edition? Using the SonMP3 addon?

[That One Jig]

KingofHarts, on 15 March 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Perhaps an MP3 patch in similar fashion to Sonic 1 SAGE 2010 Edition? Using the SonMP3 addon?

That wouldn't be feasible. First off, I'm not sure if SonMP3 is even compatible with S3K as of now. Even if it was, that wouldn't mean it'd be easy to apply to S3C.

But that's besides the point. The fact is that the actual music wouldn't be in the game itself. You'd have to play the game through the Gens/GS emulator with MP3 files. I know that many people prefer to play their Genesis games on other emulators: Kega for PC, and a completely different emu for mobile (MD.emu, Gensoid). Most important of all, though, is that it wouldn't be compatible with the actual Sega Genesis hardware. The conditions to play the game with that music would be too harsh...any conditions would be too much, in fact.

[Glisp]

Okay have a couple of bugs/debugging issues that could use fixing in any future builds.
First off, there is a place in Launch Base Zone act 2 that is the first underwater exit in Knuckles game. There is a red switch that changes the ceiling/floor (the things with the Red and Black strips that can be moved with switches). Well anyway, Super Tails' Super Flickies can hit this switch and allow Tails to access this area when he shouldn't be able to. This is in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I've tested it in this hack and the Super Flickies can still home in on this particular switch. (it's close to the end of Sonic/Tails route where the first part of Knuckles' act 2 intersects with Sonic and Tails' route from underwater.)

My next thing has to do with debug mode and the credits. I think debug mode needs to be disabled during the credits because it causes them to get stuck sometimes if you press B on accident as it can potentially screw up the scrolling text and other stuff. While not really a glitch, it should still be fixed to prevent people from fucking up the game here...

There were a couple of other suggestions I had, such as moving flying battery between Ice Cap and Carnival Night zone but that's dumb as it would screw up the Mushroom Hill/Mushroom Valley outro. It's also kinda bothered me how Sonic goes to doomsday zone but tails doesn't since they have practically the same story and ending. It would make a bit more sense to have him go there by normal means but only when he gets the Super Emeralds. (as Super Tails can only be obtained with the Super Emeralds unless you count the 0517 super forms.....)

This post has been edited by Glisp: 18 March 2012 - 03:46 PM

[dsrb]

Glisp, on 18 March 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

[T]here is a place in Launch Base Zone act 2 that is the first underwater exit in Knuckles game. There is a red switch that changes the ceiling/floor (the things with the Red and Black strips that can be moved with switches). Well anyway, Super Tails' Super Flickies can hit this switch and allow Tails to access this area when he shouldn't be able to. This is in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I've tested it in this hack and the Super Flickies can still home in on this particular switch. (it's close to the end of Sonic/Tails route where the first part of Knuckles' act 2 intersects with Sonic and Tails' route from underwater.)

As long the Flickies don't have to glitch through a wall or anything, and getting onto Knuckles' route doesn't make the level unplayable or the game glitch-up, I don't have a problem with this. It's actually kinda cool, when you think about it (whether it was intentional or not).

Moving FBZ and everything that entails has been discussed a tonne of times. Nothing is promised yet, but AFAIK nothing is ruled out either. If you go back and read about the latest release, I think a preview of the night-time FBZ is in there.

[Glisp]

I need to spend more time on the boards. lol. I'll look at the discussion more throughly after this post.

Yes, it is interesting you can access it, but I haven't explored enough to know if there's any ill effects or not. Though, since Super Tails can drown (unless the bubble objects are there, which they should be.) I'm not sure how much of it is explorable by normal means. Though, you don't even need debug to access this. All you need is Super Tails which makes it probably one of the easiest glitches to do in the game. (if you can call it a glitch anyway.) Not much point of exploring Knux area as Tails other than for shits and giggles though as you'd be going backwards through Knuckles' route. XD

As for the Flying Battery thing, I'm curious how the Mushroom Hill/Valley outro will be changed if FBZ is moved for some versions of the hack. I'm sure Tiddles will come up with some creative new outro. Heck, jumping off the cliff at the end of MHZ even makes sense as you fall from the sky in the beginning of Sandopolis anyway. Though Knuckles would skip FBZ entirely going by how it was done. As the Wiki says, there' no Knuckles only routes in FBZ and also why only Robotnik is the boss. (EggRobo appears as the sub-boss in act 2 but that has to do with Knuckles himself iirc.)

Another note, Eggrobo's boss fights are generally harder. I don't think anything other than sprites have been changed for him in the current build's FBZ however. For example, the Eggrobo (or as I call him, Master EggRobo due to him being more damage resistant than standard Eggrobos.) Will fire four blasts from his cannons instead of 2 for his AIZ fight. The MHZ fight has more spiked balls to dodge when playing as knuckles. There's other examples as well just can't think of them atm.


Edit: Just remembered something: Will we be seeing these unused 2 player mode sprites in a future build? Granted, 2 player mode isn't as enjoyable as the main game, but it's always bothered me that it was never corrected, not even in retail S3K.

This post has been edited by Glisp: 18 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

[Knucklez]

dsrb, on 18 March 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Glisp, on 18 March 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

[T]here is a place in Launch Base Zone act 2 that is the first underwater exit in Knuckles game. There is a red switch that changes the ceiling/floor (the things with the Red and Black strips that can be moved with switches). Well anyway, Super Tails' Super Flickies can hit this switch and allow Tails to access this area when he shouldn't be able to. This is in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I've tested it in this hack and the Super Flickies can still home in on this particular switch. (it's close to the end of Sonic/Tails route where the first part of Knuckles' act 2 intersects with Sonic and Tails' route from underwater.)

Moving FBZ and everything that entails has been discussed a tonne of times. Nothing is promised yet, but AFAIK nothing is ruled out either. If you go back and read about the latest release, I think a preview of the night-time FBZ is in there.

Even if nothing is promised or ruled out, then shifting FBZ in-between CNZ and ICZ shouldn't be made as a permanent feature of the official release builds of S3C, but instead as a patch option. IDGAF what Sonic Team may have intended before breaking the game in two, but the order they put the stages in is the order they decided on in the end.

The original Sonic 3 (part one) level select screen shows that FBZ was in-between CNZ and ICZ, yes, but no one would have ever known that if it wasn't for cheat codes and whatnot to let you access it in the first place. Unfortunately, that hasn't stopped the bandwagons from saying that FBZ should follow the original Sonic 3 level select order just because it's there. Based on what? You don't really know why it's still there. It may have been an honest mistake on Sonic Team's part for leaving it there to begin with. Yet, people base all this shit on their own assumptions with no legitimate proof to back up their claims. So whoever wants to sit there and support the idea of making this a certain or permanent feature is just supporting a scrapped idea that never happened, which isn't really Sonic 3-ifying the game now is it?

For the record, this isn't directed at one specific person, but rather a specific group of people. Thanks.

[dsrb]

Knucklez, on 18 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Even if nothing is promised or ruled out, then shifting FBZ in-between CNZ and ICZ shouldn't be made as a permanent feature of the official release builds of S3C, but instead as a patch option.

Who said it would be made such?

Quote

So whoever wants to sit there and support the idea of making this a certain or permanent feature is just supporting a scrapped idea that never happened, which isn't really Sonic 3-ifying the game now is it?

Who wants to do this?

Quote

For the record, this isn't directed at one specific person, but rather a specific group of people. Thanks.

Who?

You could have avoided that entire rant by not conjuring up an imaginary group of compulsory-reorder zealots, but whatever!