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Sonic 3 Complete S&K Collection on MD, with fixes, Sonic 3 music and many options.

#1816 User is offline JigenD 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:03 PM

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If it can be done on the S&K collection, then it'd be great if one day it comes to fruition. And thanks for the clarifications on the Mega CD ram, which I was unaware of. Regarding the sprites, I am sure that they exist, at least for the S1 sonic and tails. Either way, my main point with all this back and forth was mostly trying to gather some interest regarding improving the audio and animation, with no compromises for the whole experience (which, as I now realize, the Mega CD has).

One day there may be alternatives. This project has already done lots of great things regarding bug fixes, color correction, object placement, level order, and even a certain degree of customization. My greatest wish regarding this particular game is for us to one day have our widescreen, superbly animated experience with CD quality audio, and maybe even a few extra small 32-bit-esque graphical goodies, akin to mania. But that, only time will tell. The best we can do is keep pushing this thing forward.

#1817 User is offline Flygon 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:59 PM

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You don't even need any additional hardware to help render additional animation frames. The limitation was always about ROM space, more than anything else.

While I'm sure we appreciate your enthusiasm, the boisterousness really does feel quite misplaced. For the things you're discussing, they aren't even really coding limitations. They're largely not even hardware problems.
They're financial problems.

Take it from my own perspective. I'm working on a script for a Master System game project. Now here's the thing. My main problem isn't actually hardware limitations - as much as those do very much factor in. It's financial.

Artists cost money. Musicians cost money. Even for a project that's very much labor of love, like Sonic 3 Complete, it's not going to be easy to find artists and musicians that can produce works up to the caliber of Sonic Team of the era. And the best are going to want money, if you want these things done in any reasonable amount of time.


Sonic 3 Complete could very much have overhauled artwork without switching platforms at all. But are you willing to donate the hundreds of dollars to get that ball rolling?
Music is another story, of course. - But even if you allow usage of the MEGA CD sound hardware, or 32x, producing something up to the standards - for every single track - set by Sonic Team aint gonna be easy.


Don't get me wrong, we would all very much love to make a new-and-improved Sonic 3 & Knuckles experience. We all secretly do. It's even a childhood dream for most of us.
But to avoid your enthusiasm being crushed much harder, much later, I really do need to make you understand that the problem isn't a lack of motivational speaking. It's a lack of money.

Money will always be the biggest problem.

also doing these sort of enhancements based on a pc port makes a whole lot more sense than working on 25 year old garapagos hardware anyway tbh

#1818 User is offline Neo 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:22 PM

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View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

[...] my main point with all this back and forth was mostly trying to gather some interest [...] The best we can do is keep pushing this thing forward.

I don't think you appreciate the point I was making with the first part of my post. You're not pushing anything forward.

Do you really think no one has thought about adding extra rotation sprites and developing for the Mega CD before? Clearly they have, because you cited two projects which already implemented those ideas!

Suggesting such basic, yet extremely demanding features, without putting any of your own effort into making them happen is, to me, more than useless; it is outright insulting. Do you think skill and knowledge just comes naturally to a few people? I spent my first ten years in this community without so much as reading a single line of code. One day a couple of years ago I posted a picture I drew in Paint, a few months later I was sending Tiddles art and sprite mappings authored in SonMapEd, then I was editing animation scripts, and before I knew it, I had programmed the drop dash from Sonic Mania and the boost mode from Sonic Advance 2, and now I'm writing a blog about bad subroutines leaving behind dirty object RAM which triggers otherwise unused hangover code from Sonic 2. And I'm still messing around with art and sprite mappings in SonMapEd.

Saying "it would be nice if we had so and so" doesn't really help anything unless you're willing to work towards that goal in some way. If you can't program, you can produce assets. If you're not an artist, you can design storyboards and animatics. If you have none of those skills but still have a vision, then hone those skills so you can one day deliver on that vision.
This post has been edited by Neo: 07 December 2017 - 11:41 PM

#1819 User is offline JigenD 

Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:53 AM

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Quote

I don't think you appreciate the point I was making with the first part of my post. You're not pushing anything forward.


Well, you think wrong regarding appreciation. And also I humbly disagree, regarding what pushes things forward. Any contribution, or idea has the potential of pushing trends and ideas into any given direction, even if just by a bit.

Just as I am a member of this community, I am also a member of a bunch of others. And just as with any other place, in all communities, there's an interdependent dialectic, established between modders, fans, admins, etc.

Once in a while, someone will present something new. Sometimes it's a vague concept, others it's a piece of memorabilia. Sometimes it can be a 3d model, other times it will be a convoluted new concept, or a piece of previously unknown trivia. And just like any other place, sometimes these threads pick up steam and get people talking. People that had spent time working in small pieces of content will publish them if it's topic related. Volunteers will appear. New projects are born. Trends in the modding scene are created. After all, a community is a place to where ideas and concepts are shared. When users actually talk sometimes people that have had the same idea for months or years will join in, and start cooperating. Even in the last few entries of this thread I'm proven right, for the sole fact of mainmemory showing up, and dropping an idea tangent to mine. For cooperation to take place, a dialogue must first get started. It's not a hard concept to understand.

I am not really sure what you mean with the "insulting" part. If everything depended on you, would you rather have users not talk? No one is putting you down, there's no need for you to be so pent up over a false, perceived sense of being devalued. I have already apologized (when maybe I shouldn't have, because I didn't insult anyone) for not knowing about the RAM limitations of the Mega CD. If I was really being unappreciative, I'd probably just drop one or two lines of text when I made my initial suggestion (which is actual true dismissal). But I actually dropped 3 paragraphs, where I explained my point of view based on the things I knew. Now if you think that average users should actually be apprehensive before posting a suggestion or idea, well, all I have to say is that I do not agree with that.
This post has been edited by JigenD: 08 December 2017 - 06:14 AM

#1820 User is offline flamewing 

Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:20 AM

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View PostNeo, on 07 December 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

Are you willing to draw the inbetween sprites yourself? Remember, Sonic alone has about 200 frames while Tails and Knuckles are closer to 250 each, so I expect about 700 new frames to bump the smoothness up by just one factor. As for adding extra angles to the running animation, you could just rotate and clean up the existing frames, but that's still about 70 new frames for just one extra factor of rotation, and about 200 frames for two.

I also thought about saying something along those lines, but I decided against it since the technical limitations of the Mega CD were already enough for my point.

But since you mentioned this, I want to add that those 700-1000 frames you estimate are a small part of what would be needed: there are the alternate sprite sheets to account for, as well as Super Sonic.

And why stop at the normal game? Don't the special stages deserve some love? And maybe Mecha Sonic too? Eggman? At which point does it stop?

Yeah, it is a lot of work for slightly smoother animations. It is workable when you have a team of artists being paid to do it, not when you have individual volunteer artists doing it on their free time.

View PostJigenD, on 08 December 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

Once in a while, someone will present something new.

True. That is not what happened in this case. Converting SCH to Mega CD has been suggested several times over at it's thread and in other locations, and shot down as many times. It is likely that other popular hacks have received similar requests over the years.

Smooth animations are also not a new thing: Pana had smooth animations way before Mania came about, and yet most hacks don't post-Pana also don't have that level of smoothness — for pretty much the same reasons.

You are not suggesting new things, you are rehashing old often seen things and combining them in a single post.
This post has been edited by flamewing: 08 December 2017 - 06:28 AM

#1821 User is offline JigenD 

Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:38 AM

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Quote

Converting SCH to Mega CD has been suggested several times

True, hence my question on the level of feasibility regarding that.

Quote

Smooth animations are also not a new thing

They are not an entirely new thing but they might just as well be considered as such, since they've only been implemented 2 or 3 times in Mega Drive specific projects: Pana and S1 smooth Edition.

There's no harm in asking. Now we all know that getting better audio could be done in the S&K collection. I didn't know that, and I''m sure many lurkers didn't either. Mainmemory suggested that. It's a net positive overall. Also the sprites do exist for Sonic 1 at least. Maybe someone knows of someone else with lots of sprites from an obscure project from years ago. A poll could be opened about who's willing to do sprites. I would do share of the work no problem. I firmly maintain my point that there's no harm in asking. Just go through the Doom 3 community. They have achieved literally crazy things throughout the years because of the open nature of both their projects and their community. Being this defensive because of my half-decently articulated question is out of proportion IMHO.
This post has been edited by JigenD: 08 December 2017 - 06:43 AM

#1822 User is offline Muscle Wizard 

Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:52 AM

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In the midst of this ongoing debate, my only modest proposal is a toggle for Knuckles's underwater physics. Going by the past official 2D Sonic releases (phone reworks & Mania) it appears that Gliding underwater as it was in the original was somewhat if not fully intentional as a design choice? It's about the only thing I can think of in S3 Complete that I really think should be an option. Not too keen on the idea of porting it to Mega CD, I'm not sure what the game needs or why it should be on a platform like that when it's already functional and content-filled as it stands on its current platform. The only port I'd consider is a widescreen remaster ala the Taxman/Stealth things, and that's not really in the scope of this project in particular to be honest.
This post has been edited by Muscle Wizard: 08 December 2017 - 07:52 AM

#1823 User is offline nineko 

Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

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For what it's worth, I don't like to have more than 8 rotation angles, and I can't see why someone would want to have that. If such a thing is done, please keep it optional.

#1824 User is offline SuperSnoopy 

Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:47 PM

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I dunno, it look better, I guess ?
(You're talking about the loops, right ?)
This post has been edited by SuperSnoopy: 09 December 2017 - 01:47 PM

#1825 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 09 December 2017 - 02:12 PM

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Posted Image

What's this about extra frames?

#1826 User is offline Neo 

Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:52 PM

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View PostBlack Squirrel, on 09 December 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Posted Image

What's this about extra frames?

I don't understand this meme. All other bosses which flip from side to side also do so without any inbetween frames. How is the MGZ1 boss worse than say, Big Arm?

#1827 User is offline rata 

Posted 09 December 2017 - 10:44 PM

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Fliping side to side is a nonsense to mention since every single object does it withour inbetween frames...

#1828 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 10 December 2017 - 05:45 AM

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View PostNeo, on 09 December 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

View PostBlack Squirrel, on 09 December 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Posted Image

What's this about extra frames?

I don't understand this meme. All other bosses which flip from side to side also do so without any inbetween frames. How is the MGZ1 boss worse than say, Big Arm?

Because I noticed that one. And it's a lot easier to draw.

It's a much more productive use of one's time than adding more frames to Sonic's walk cycle, which was being discussed.

#1829 User is offline Chibisteven 

Posted 10 December 2017 - 07:11 AM

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View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

The point with porting S3 Complete to either the Mega CD (or even the 32x) would be vastly improved audio.


On the Saturn, yes it was possible to squeeze a bunch of ADPCM compressed audio on a disc but that has it's own issues as another member pointed out. Good luck on the SEGA CD, at most you probably just get low quality mono audio instead of decent stereo and probably don't want to use too complex of an ADPCM codec either. Using Redbook Audio tracks is completely out of the question with the number of tracks and length of them that Sonic 3 & Knuckles has (not possible). It's possible to USE the PCM chip to play some of sound effects and drum samples better than the YM2612 is able to, but good luck with that, too (you don't even have the original samples to begin with as those are already compressed 4-bit DPCM). Also good luck with the 32X as well. Final verdict: NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE AT ALL.
This post has been edited by Chibisteven: 10 December 2017 - 07:14 AM

#1830 User is offline Knucklez 

Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:29 AM

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All this time I haven't posted on Retro for me to come out of the shadows to just say it. All of this pointless blabbering about porting and other nonsense for a project that has essentially been "complete" since 2013. Both Tiddles and Neo have stated they are done with it for all the various reasons. Passion, time and money are of the essence and people just can't have all of that to keep a great thing going. As it stands, this project is perfect and everything that was set out to be done was accomplished AND MORE. Have a fine day ladies and gentlemen. I will now have my breakfast.

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