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Sonic 3 Complete S&K Collection on MD, with fixes, Sonic 3 music and many options.

#1801 User is offline flamewing 

Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:59 PM

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View PostNeo, on 05 September 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

I don't think it has anything to do with the level loop, because all objects are moved at the same time. It just happens because Tails is able to reach Sonic's horizontal position despite the fact that player 1 is still holding right. There should be plenty of ways to fix it, I just don't know exactly how they did it on the remaster.

There are a few things that might be relevant here:
  • Tails's AI aims a point 32 pixels to the left of Sonic's position as it was a few frames ago (16, if memory serves);
  • Tails has the same position cap as Sonic;
  • Loop code does not change Sonic's position array, just his current position.

So maybe Tails starts to run and catches up to the position it wants to get close to Sonic. Then, a loop point comes along and Tails thinks Sonic is suddenly far to the right; Tails now aims to catch up with Sonic. He will run up to the position cap. His desired position catches up to the post-loop positions, and he realizes he is now ahead of Sonic; so he slows down.

This is a theory; I'd need to look through the code to made sure all of these factors are really relevant. But maybe only the position cap would be enough, and Tails may need to be lower than Sonic's. Or maybe just change Tails' AI so that it does not aim for 32 pixels behind Sonic during the battleship scene.

View PostGammatron, on 05 September 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

Tiddles, how would you feel about adding a drop dash to Sonic 3 complete? It's so good you almost want it in all the previous games now.

If Tiddles and Neo want, I can port over the prototype I made for SCH. It is compatible with insta-shield and other shield abilities, although the latter may be a bit redundant with fire shield dash.

#1802 User is offline Neo 

Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:39 PM

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View Postflamewing, on 05 September 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

If Tiddles and Neo want, I can port over the prototype I made for SCH. It is compatible with insta-shield and other shield abilities, although the latter may be a bit redundant with fire shield dash.

Actually, I had already programmed the drop dash on my own prior to Mania's release. But it doesn't matter what I want because I no longer work on S3C.

#1803 User is offline flamewing 

Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:48 AM

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View PostNeo, on 05 September 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

Actually, I had already programmed the drop dash on my own prior to Mania's release. But it doesn't matter what I want because I no longer work on S3C.

Oh, yeah, I had forgotten about that (both counts).

#1804 User is offline EterTC 

Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:45 PM

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First I'd like to say that I really enjoyed this hack. It makes the Sonic 3 & Knuckles experience more fulfilling. Lots of added features and fixes, and I also love the many customization options, it allows you to play the game to your liking.

This may not be the right place, but I'd like to say something. It's not actually a bug report, but something odd that I noticed about the music. If I choose the "Classic" themes, and then choose the "Special Theme" for Super Sonic, it will play the Super Sonic theme from Sonic 2 instead of the unused theme from S&K Collection. Wouldn't it make more sense if that was a separate option? Like having "Classic" as an option in Super theme?

Also, would it be possible to add the Sonic 2 Beta sprites to the customizer page? Or the Blue Knuckles palette for Knuckles?

#1805 User is offline JigenD 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:27 AM

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Without wanting to sound overly insistent I'd like to - once again - draw your attention towards the possibility of bringing this project to the Mega CD, similarly to how it happened with Sonic Megamix. SEGA is not going to give us the S3K re-release anytime soon, and even if it did, there would be a fairly big chance of it never seeing an actual home release, staying instead in the tiny screens of iOS and Android devices, similarly to hpw it happened with Sonic 1 and Sonic 2.

I have read the latest entries of this tread, regarding the supposed forking of the project with Neo and Tiddles, both having their own unique ideas as to how to move the project forward. Now, about that I know as much as anyone else browsing the forum, and even though I could not code to save my life, I'd like to still, use the little influence I have to bring a simple idea into the attention of everyone. Please do keep in mind that I'm not trying to be patronizing towards anyone. This project has been an absolute godsend thus far, but to see it move forward is the wish of everyone, I believe.

With this said, I'd like to ask about the possibility of doing the following in future releases. I believe my suggestions are not that far fetched, and have been suggested by other people, at one time or another, but never came into fruition.

- Adding a few more inbetween sprites for the 3 playable characters (smooth sprite rotation): This has been done before, in MarkeyJester's Pana Der Hejhog, and Sonic 1 Smooth Edition, so it is not out of the scope of Mega Drive project such as this one. It dramatically improves the feeling and fluidity of the game, as we saw in Sonic Mania (even though this game is lacking in smooth rotation for the spinning animation, which is a shame IMHO).
-Porting the project into the Mega CD: This is an obvious one. Sonic Megamix was ported into the CD and I see no reason as to not do this for this project. The CD quality music would avoid those interruptions in the instrumentality when too much stuff is happening, and would even allow for people to replace the soundtrack with higher quality/ remixed versions of the same songs.

I don't see any cons to doing any of the 2 above suggestions, nor do I find them to be a "betrayal" of sorts of the original spirit of this project. It would deliver the purest, most unadultered Sonic 3 experience possible, which I'm all for. Heck, if I was some sort of coding God, we'd be seeing this project find a new home in Sonic Jam's Sonic 3 version, and a bunch of new small details would be included, perhaps even for all classic games in there (in line with what taxman did for the mobile ports of Sonic 1, 2 and CD).

I am mostly putting these 2 ideas out there, hoping to get people interested in it. I know that if I knew anything about engineering and reverse engineering, I'd try to do it myself, but no luck thus far. Either way, all I can hope is to inspire the devs to do something similar in pushing this project forward. So many great things have been done with this project, we all want for it to get even better.
This post has been edited by JigenD: 07 December 2017 - 06:29 AM

#1806 User is online Flygon 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:31 AM

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I'm really not entirely sure how much you understand the difficulty of porting over to the MEGA CD. The lack of RAM alone is a serious kick in the balls.

Sure. Maybe Mode 1 shenanigans? But running from a CD alone sounds like an awful idea.

#1807 User is offline JigenD 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:48 AM

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Oh yes, I didn't assume it to be easy, quite the contrary. But it has been done before in Sonic Megamix.

My 2 main points were bringing CD or near CD quality music and smoother animations to this project.

Whatever route is taken doesn't mean much, just follow the path of least resistant and greater results. Heck, if porting to the 32x would give us better audio and graphical possibilities (and it has been done before with Sonic 1 as a proof of concept) then by all means, if it is more feasible, do it. Now I don't wanna sound like I'm patronizing, let me emphasize that again. But any idea which pushes this project further should be taken, because as it stands, SEGA willl leave S3K in a limbo for god knows how long.
This post has been edited by JigenD: 07 December 2017 - 06:50 AM

#1808 User is offline flamewing 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:37 AM

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Porting to the Mega CD is probably impossible for S3&K: stock S3&K art for Sonic and Tails, plus mappings, take up about 256kB of space. This is all of word RAM in 1M mode, and you still need to fit all code and assets required for the entire zone (Sonic CD and Megamix do this per act) into the 0kB remaining. This means no space left for code and all other assets. You can probably get by with a lot of trickery (compressing frames of at for Sonic and Tails and decompressing as needed), but the game would be much slower on the end.

Porting S3&K to 32x would be a less unrealistic thing to ask for than porting to Mega CD.
This post has been edited by flamewing: 07 December 2017 - 08:38 AM

#1809 User is offline redhotsonic 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:43 AM

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Unless I am missing the point... why would you want to port it to the MCD (or even 32x)? It runs perfectly fine on the MD. Just a waste of time and effort if you ask me.

#1810 User is offline JigenD 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:06 AM

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The point with porting S3 Complete to either the Mega CD (or even the 32x) would be vastly improved audio. In short, doing for this project the same that Sonic Jam did for the games in that collection. The 32X in particular could allow for some neat effects here and there; possibly helping with the extra inbetween sprites for added smoothness that I suggested,something which some proof of concept projects have already done. All I'm doing doing is suggesting things that will propel this project further, into a perfect Sonic 3 experience.

#1811 User is offline Clownacy 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:02 AM

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Moving to CD would break a lot of audio, too. For example, in Sonic Jam the speed shoes monitor causes the music to restart. Also, on the Mega CD there would be pauses while the disc seeks to start a new song, leaving awkward periods of silence. The 1UP jingle would also probably not work properly, considering how Sonic CD removed it entirely. That doesn't sound like the perfect Sonic 3 experience, to me.

You also have the issue of emulator support: just about every Mega Drive emulator can run S3C, but not many support the Mega CD, or especially the 32X.

#1812 User is offline Neo 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:01 AM

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I am always hesitant about posting in topic because S3C isn't my baby, but I feel there are a few points I should address.

View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

Adding a few more inbetween sprites for the 3 playable characters

Are you willing to draw the inbetween sprites yourself? Remember, Sonic alone has about 200 frames while Tails and Knuckles are closer to 250 each, so I expect about 700 new frames to bump the smoothness up by just one factor. As for adding extra angles to the running animation, you could just rotate and clean up the existing frames, but that's still about 70 new frames for just one extra factor of rotation, and about 200 frames for two.

View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

The CD quality music would avoid those interruptions in the instrumentality when too much stuff is happening

And add much more disruptive interruptions when the CD has to stop and rewind to the beginning of the track?

View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

vastly improved audio

Citation needed. I like the original Mega Drive compositions.

View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

I could not code to save my life

View PostJigenD, on 07 December 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

I don't see any cons to doing any of the 2 above suggestions

This is the point in your post where you should have reconsidered your approach.

Your claim is that you're not trying to be patronizing or pushy, but then you admit you don't have the knowledge to identify problems with your obvious improvements. It's understandable that you don't know the rubs of Mega CD development; hell, I only know the broad strokes. Most folks look at the 4 MB and 700 MB figures and immediately pick out a winner, with CD-quality audio to boot! What could possibly go wrong?

The short story is, reading from the CD is agonizingly slow, whereas reading from a cartridge is lightning fast. So fast, in fact, that you can execute code, and even read huge swathes of data such as all the character sprites directly from the cartridge. Not so with the CD: everything needs to be preemptively loaded to a region of memory called

View Postflamewing, on 07 December 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

word RAM
work RAM, which as flamewing points out is tiny, and as such only grants you access to a very small slice of the CD at any given time, much smaller than the maximum capacity of a Mega Drive cartridge. This backwards-ass design meant it was actually easier for Sonic CD's developers to essentially include 70 standalone ROMs in the CD, each with a single stage, and load them one at a time whenever you clear the stage or travel in time. Ironically, carrying round 70 copies of Sonic's sprites is cheap on the Mega CD, but fitting them in work RAM is nigh impossible.

Having said that, the Mega CD has another mode in which the the cartridge slot and the CD drive can be used in tandem. I am not opposed to this, so long as the game can still be played using the cartridge alone: I once half-jokingly suggested that given all the classic music options already in the menu, S3C should also detect any official version of Sonic CD in the drive, and add that game's jingles to the list of options.

View Postflamewing, on 07 December 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Porting S3&K to 32x would be a less unrealistic thing to ask for than porting to Mega CD.

I'm not sure this is a worthwhile endeavor if you don't intend on making radical changes to the game's graphics.
This post has been edited by Neo: 07 December 2017 - 11:42 PM

#1813 User is offline MainMemory 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:04 AM

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If you want improved audio, you should be asking to port it to Sonic & Knuckles Collection (which I would still love to try btw).

#1814 User is offline Neo 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:09 AM

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View PostMainMemory, on 07 December 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

If you want improved audio, you should be asking to port it to Sonic & Knuckles Collection (which I would still love to try btw).

This is a much more compelling argument, to which my only counter is that I like programming against arbitrary hardware limitations.

#1815 User is offline MainMemory 

Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:16 AM

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I said I would love to try it, meaning that you would give me the relevant code and data (or just directions on what needs to be changed), and I would attempt to translate it into a mod or series of mods.

But this is perhaps a discussion that should be happening in a more private location.

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