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Project Direction

#1 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:48 PM

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With the recent departure of Chimpo as this project's leader, we are in need of a solid direction for the project to take from this point forward. Issues raised in the previous thread are free to be revisited.

Things to discuss:

- Target platform/engine being used
- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions
- Intentional limitations—yes/no
- Programmers, musicians—where the talent is coming from
- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole

Now is the time to make decisions. Any off-topic bullshit will be deleted. Rebellious, egotistical walls of text will not be tolerated. Let's do this, dudes.

#2 User is offline jman2050 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:58 PM

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View PostTweaker, on May 6 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

- Target platform/engine being used
Genesis would be wasteful, so I'm still in favor of E02
- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions
I volunteered, though obviously I can only do that if people are willing to go along with it.
- Intentional limitations—yes/no
No more than what would be limited by the tools used
- Programmers, musicians—where the talent is coming from
Iit'd seem to be me programming it if it were in E02 regardless of whether I lead or not since I'm evidently the only person besides Stealth who's taken the time to actually learn the system, but anyone else willing is fine. OSM and Chimpo are awesome at art and can actually work within stated limitations, I really like Matwek's brainstorming and level design and concepts. Dunno where the music is coming from.
- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole
Some of you are thinking about this whole process waaay too hard. Game development isn't rocket science, it's just work.


My thoughts.

#3 User is offline Andlabs 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:59 PM

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View PostTweaker, on May 6 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

- Target platform/engine being used
With a fair bit of work this can be made very portable. And I mean very portable. That is, we can have this run on everything from a Sega Genesis to a Windows 7 box and beyond. I can help with this.

Quote

- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions
I can lead programming direction and music direction; though I would also like to contribute in both fields.

Quote

- Intentional limitations—yes/no
Not yet. When we have enough ideas, we can start sifting through to find the best ones.

Quote

- Programmers, musicians—where the talent is coming from
Again, I can do both.

Quote

- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole


What are the problems so far? Basically it's just that everyone is running around in a million different directions with what to do. Everyone wants to promote their own ideas. Some are excellent, some are good, some are bad, some are horrible. Argumentation over which idea is best simply doesn't work.

Priorities! Screw the sprite sheets. It doesn't matter if Sonic has one pixel off yet. Imperfections in art don't have to be handled right away. Let's focus on getting a general idea on how this game would go, then start going with general ideas for the game, then go into the specifics. Of course, music and code would have this differently, but they should come when they are needed (music when the planning is done; code when we have enough to build a test engine).

Above all, keep it classy. This is the second time the project has been rebooted. Let's not kill this again.

#4 User is offline Spanner 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:17 PM

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View PostTweaker, on May 6 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

- Target platform/engine being used

I'd like to see this made for the Sega Mega Drive. My main reasons is so that limitations are strict, there would be no issues with software, all you'd need is an emulator, it could end up being played on real hardware and it'd be good to see a new Sonic game on the MD, fan-created or not.

Tweaker said:

- Intentional limitations—yes/no

If it's going to be developed on the MD, then obviously the console's limitations will come into force. Fangame engines, regardless of how good they are cannot replicate all the things the MD can do. That's my opinion any way.

Tweaker said:

- Programmers, musicians—where the talent is coming from

I'm pretty much useless, but if you port the Sonic 1 SMPS Sound Driver (if possible) I could assist with importing, but that's about it. Other than that I don't see anything I could be involved in, sorry.

Tweaker said:

- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole

I'd like to see this project handled efficiently. I've lost interest several times in this, if good co-ordinators are chosen then hopefully the project can go smooth for once, instead of countless restarts.

#5 User is offline The Shad 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:19 PM

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I've seen this BS from the beginning (as a project leader no less) and here's my 2 cents:

We need more than one leader but not alot. Here's why. One leader ends up like Chimpo. Its all on his back, no ones contributing and then he says fuck it, there's nothing done. Too many leaders ends up like the original S4 project. There needs to be a balance. Something where if one leader goes batshit, we still have someone who can pick up the slack.

With that said, we also need CONTRIBUTORS. I can't do anything much design wise. No computer and I have no talent, but I can offer constructive (note the CONSTRUCTIVE) criticism that isn't just bitching and I can at least conceptualise.

If we're to have leaders, they need to answer these following questions;

If Project: Sonic Retro is still meant to be a "sequel" to the Genesis S3&K, what would be incoporated if the game were continued on the same time table of S1-3&K (a game a year):
-What platform is this game to be played on? (Genesis?) This will set our goals and limitations, something every incarnation has lacked badly.
-What characters will be used?
-What will be carried over from the previous game?
-What will be removed?

This means no SCD inspired stuff. I'm sorry, it doesn't happen. SCD is off in its own little niche, a side note to the series. The main series was 1-3&K until SA1. That means no Super Peel Out. No "Every Zone Name Alliteration". Look at SAdv1 if you need an idea of where the series MIGHT have gone to continue where an S4 might end up. That doesn't mean directly rip from it. A leader needs to think logically, not worry about fanwank. That means nothing stupid like Metal Shields or throwing Metal Sonic and Fang in at every turn. That also means not pulling an MM9 and completely removing everything that had been added to the series. If the leaders/contributors can't figure these things out, then this project needs to be nuked and nuked quick.

So with that said, my thoughts:

- Target platform/engine being used

The Genesis is ideal. We've seen what can be done from ASM and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but were any of the Sonic games done from a complete scratch engine (this meaning 2-3&K).

- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions

2 or 3 at most without complete totalitarian rule but the authority to say "Shut the fuck up, this is what we need to focus on", which is what Chimpo was doing perfectly. Its a shame everyone boffed it up.

- Intentional limitations—yes/no

Choose your platform, choose your limitations. Again, if this is to be the supposed sequel to the original Sonic Series, it would've likely been released in 94/95 on the Genesis or Saturn. Saturn is fuck all to develop for and the Genesis had a good long life.

- Programmers, musicians—where the talent is coming from

No input here. We need people who are actually willing. Actually, a little input. No remixes. None. Its cute about ten years later, but I doubt the 4th (5th?) game in the series would've been throwing around the GHZ Remix.

- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole

Not complete fanwank.

#6 User is offline jman2050 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:20 PM

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I'll also remark that with all the supposed drama this project has gone through, you can't make a good product without stepping back and correcting past mistakes, even if it means throwing away already completed work. Better to do that in the beginning than at the end, so just consider this a step in the whole process.

#7 User is offline Ritz 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:33 PM

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View PostSOTI, on May 6 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

If it's going to be developed on the MD, then obviously the console's limitations will come into force. Fangame engines, regardless of how good they are cannot replicate all the things the MD can do. That's my opinion any way.

I'm sorry, are you really telling me that a modern day engine without any real limitations can't perfectly replicate any and all facets of a piece of hardware that was created over 20 years ago, with ease? You'd be better off just stating that you'd rather the project be done for the MD because it's the only thing you and the rest of this forum are familiar with.

#8 User is offline The Shad 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:37 PM

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View PostRitz, on May 6 2009, 02:33 PM, said:

View PostSOTI, on May 6 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

If it's going to be developed on the MD, then obviously the console's limitations will come into force. Fangame engines, regardless of how good they are cannot replicate all the things the MD can do. That's my opinion any way.

I'm sorry, are you really telling me that a modern day engine without any real limitations can't perfectly replicate any and all facets of a piece of hardware that was created over 20 years ago, with ease? You'd be better off just stating that you'd rather the project be done for the MD because it's the only thing you and the rest of this forum are familiar with.


Quote

If Project: Sonic Retro is still meant to be a "sequel" to the Genesis S3&K


Or something. Truthfully, I'm a little biased because if this actually ever goes anywhere, I'd love to play it on an emulator, but if I recall, they never started S2-3&K completely from scratch.

#9 User is offline Blanche Hodapp 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:46 PM

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View PostThe Shad, on May 6 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

but if I recall, they never started S2-3&K completely from scratch.

No, they built S2 from S1, then S3K from S2. Or something like that.

So it's a shame there's no complete disassembly of S3K, because technically any true "sequel" should be built directly off that! :psyduck:

And FWIW, I think the best platform is the Mega Drive. Not only will it be a true "spiritual sequel" to the original three/four games, but to all you naysayers who are all "no no let's use E02 it's so much more advanced," I ask the following - why bother? Why bother programming another engine to replicate what's already there?

#10 User is offline jman2050 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:50 PM

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View PostBlanche Hodapp, on May 6 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

And FWIW, I think the best platform is the Mega Drive. Not only will it be a true "spiritual sequel" to the original three/four games, but to all you naysayers who are all "no no let's use E02 it's so much more advanced," I ask the following - why bother? Why bother programming another engine to replicate what's already there?


But that's the point... there is ALREADY a fully functioning S3K engine in use in E02, completely modifiable by anyone. I put Chimpo's sprites into Stealth's PSR test demo a long time ago and it looked great.

Any work done on E02 would be modifying an existing base, much like your standard ASM editing, only with far less hassle.

#11 User is offline muteKi 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:52 PM

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Well, it's already programmed, is the thing. And (*gasp*) is also based off the engines of the genesis games! :P


EDIT: fuck, ninja'd.
This post has been edited by muteKi: 06 May 2009 - 02:53 PM

#12 User is offline The Shad 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:53 PM

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Like I said, I'm a bit biased because I would love to see this run on emulators or even real hardware, but its not my choice to make.

Though, really, we wouldn't need an S3K disassembly because you can more or less do anything in S1 or S2 through ASM anyways. Just look at all the features Megamix has added to the original game, alot of which come from S3K.

#13 User is offline test-object 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:03 PM

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- Target platform/engine being used
Genesis... wasn't that the point all along, anyway?

- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions
Keep the (s) in that word. We've tried dictatorships before and it lead to problems up the ass. Several leaders, each leading their departement and discuss any clashes in style. My vote belongs to Jan Abaza for main leader just to get things on with it.

- Intentional limitations—yes/no
Yes.

- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole
Can I work on it now? : (

#14 User is offline Blanche Hodapp 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:06 PM

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View Postjman2050, on May 6 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

View PostBlanche Hodapp, on May 6 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

And FWIW, I think the best platform is the Mega Drive. Not only will it be a true "spiritual sequel" to the original three/four games, but to all you naysayers who are all "no no let's use E02 it's so much more advanced," I ask the following - why bother? Why bother programming another engine to replicate what's already there?


But that's the point... there is ALREADY a fully functioning S3K engine in use in E02, completely modifiable by anyone. I put Chimpo's sprites into Stealth's PSR test demo a long time ago and it looked great.

Any work done on E02 would be modifying an existing base, much like your standard ASM editing, only with far less hassle.

Then let's look at the other consideration, how many people can actually work with E02? If more people know ASM, it's probably still better to go with that, because if one person flakes there're more people to take over.

#15 User is offline The Shad 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:08 PM

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View Posttest-object, on May 6 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

- Target platform/engine being used
Genesis... wasn't that the point all along, anyway?

Yes, it was.

Quote

- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions
Keep the (s) in that word. We've tried dictatorships before and it lead to problems up the ass. Several leaders, each leading their departement and discuss any clashes in style. My vote belongs to Jan Abaza for main leader just to get things on with it.

Again, not too many leaders. It was tried with S4 in its first incarnation and it got nowhere.

I'd like to nominate myself to have some sort of direction lead because I think I have a good idea of how to at least get this thing on a leg to stand with. But, it also depends on how many people agree with anything I said. I don't know, I'd just like to be able to do more than just sit around and be a constructive criticiser.

View PostBlanche Hodapp, on May 6 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

View Postjman2050, on May 6 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

View PostBlanche Hodapp, on May 6 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

And FWIW, I think the best platform is the Mega Drive. Not only will it be a true "spiritual sequel" to the original three/four games, but to all you naysayers who are all "no no let's use E02 it's so much more advanced," I ask the following - why bother? Why bother programming another engine to replicate what's already there?


But that's the point... there is ALREADY a fully functioning S3K engine in use in E02, completely modifiable by anyone. I put Chimpo's sprites into Stealth's PSR test demo a long time ago and it looked great.

Any work done on E02 would be modifying an existing base, much like your standard ASM editing, only with far less hassle.

Then let's look at the other consideration, how many people can actually work with E02? If more people know ASM, it's probably still better to go with that, because if one person flakes there're more people to take over.

This is true, too. Something else I pointed out about having not enough but too many leaders. Cluttered or nothing. No balance. Its the same with E02. Even if we just started on ASM and eventually ported it all to E02, we'll at least have something. And we really need something right now.
This post has been edited by The Shad: 06 May 2009 - 03:11 PM

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