[Gambit]

Goddamnit you people. This project isn't closed, we simply picked a bad way to word what we wanted to say. If it wasn't going to be a community project we would've said fuck off and picked up our stuff and left. Want to know what we see this as? Alright.

I'm not saying you have to honor every single mundane complaint made by the people here who think they're artists but actually aren't, but at the very least I would request you actually update people on project progress on a consistent basis. This will not only give people a better sense of "community" in the project (even if it's falsified at the end of the day), but it will absolutely encourage people to contribute their talents towards your project. It is an absolute win-win situation on your end.

See this? Of course you do. This is more or less what we've been planning to do (showing things off and updating you). We're going to work with SS and Tweaker and get some things organized to better promote a good work flow for the forum-goers and people that want to submit things. We also plan on giving more guidance for target goals and we're going to provide feedback and work with people should they need it. We'll also probably update submissions for consistency if it's deemed necessary (this was actually done during the actual creation of Sonic 2 so that's pretty cool if you ask me).

Oh, and the reason for the silence on our end for so long is because of a few factors, but most of it is because we wanted to have a solid direction for the art before we go showing things off. We also figured we could work on Emerald Hill faster if we just keep to ourselves and work on it, and so far we have done well in that department. We'll still need to iron out exactly what we're doing, but you should know more soon.

[Mr.Deviance]

The thing is, Mr. Deviance, the problem is that this project was started as a Community Project. It was started with the idea that the community could work together to get it done fast and well. It was supposed to be collaborative.

Over time, the project became more and more closed. With the announcement by Canned Karma, people felt somewhat betrayed, or maybe they felt that their feelings were validated. In any case, as a Community Project, this kind of direction should have never happened....

Trust me, I might be a trial member here but I know much more about how this community is being ran and what and who is working at what than you would expect.
I have been an unregistered member here since this project started and I know all of it's history.
The thing that you don't seem to understand is that this project got to a point where none of the projects ever get and that's PROFESSIONALISM.
This game can't follow the community rules anymore because it's goals are too big and the quality level does not permit it anymore.
Instead of being happy that the project is going to be much better when it's done, people are bitching and threatening that they will remove this project from the forum because it's x and y.
This is the best project that could ever come to fruition out of this miserable community and all the admin does here is to give ultimatums. I would love to see the admin ever do something half as good as any of the people in this sonic 2 hd team are doing, before he gives out ultimatums. I am disgusted to see this project associated with a forum that's administered by somebody that gives out ultimatums instead of trying to provide as much help as possible to the most talented sonic remake team out there.
Instead of giving them full support and chancing the forum rules just to better suite this project everybody in the staff is so quick to act like they are the coolest people on the internet running everything. That tweaker guy gets his kicks out of feeling omnipotent when he says that he will close this project. It makes him feel like he owns this project and that he is responsible for this project ever existing or not. The way I see it this project has reached a point where it can self sustain itself it doesn't need the support this community anymore!

[Tweaker]

That tweaker guy gets his kicks out of feeling omnipotent when he says that he will close this project. It makes him feel like he owns this project and that he is responsible for this project ever existing or not. The way I see it this project has reached a point where it can self sustain itself it doesn't need the support this community anymore!

I think this community has reached a point where it doesn't need the support of you anymore. Have a nice life.

[tokumaru]

If you had made these complaints a long time ago, I wouldn't be making this post right now. But you didn't. You guys have known this (unless you're oblivious to everything around you) for years now, and only now are you complaining about it.

People may be only voicing their opinions now, but if you have been following the project you probably noticed that it has been constantly losing the interest of the community. I for one was very excited, and tried to contribute to it a few times, but ended up losing interest for some reason. Now I rarely check this sub-forum. It might have been because I just didn't see the game moving forward (the last demo, which didn't have much, was released over a year ago). When we don't see results we lose interest, and if we don't see it, it's because the staff is not showing it to us, because they guarantee progress is being made. Apparently all we can do is take their word for it, which is not much of an incentive.

[Canned Karma]

Alright guys, here you are:

As we stated earlier, Sonic 2 HD's EHZ is now locked up to final adjustments and polishing. We will be showing off relevant assets to aid in production soon, more on that below.

Onto the heart of the issue. You want to be part of Sonic 2 HD's development as an open community project? Good. Let's clean the slate and do things differently this time around.

If your intentions toward helping S2HD are mature and you want to see it developed faster, then we're happy to rethink the whole community interaction.

We'll provide you the art style & guidelines for how things should look, along with a complete overhaul of the Database to streamline things. This does not mean we'll show off all of our WIP art, some of which is now being finalized and will only slow down the alpha release. However, we'll show both the interested current and new artists the needed sources to understand S2HD's set art style and the quality level we're after. Some of this you've seen recently, and there's more to come.

By sharing our working methods, we're also sharing goals and a deadline. We'll be giving out our best, to direct artists and help them to improve (given that they'll be cooperative and motivated enough to do the hard work) towards a S2HD community goal.

By this weekend all the topics will be adjusted for this purpose, getting members into S2HD development as protagonists. What's this mean? In a nutshell:

New topics across the board. New thread for music, new threads for each zone's level art to reduce clutter and focus tasking, a new thread for characters, new thread for badniks/bosses, and a general thread for people who come up with ideas that don't fit into a specific thread. This new general thread will not be a dumping ground for everyone. We're going to set goals, and we're looking for a focus around them if you're wanting to contribute.

The first goal is to work with the staff to create Hill Top Zone. That includes concepts, actual level assets (at least two screens composed of 64x64 tiles), badniks and the zone boss. There's a set way the tilesets are constructed, and we'd like nothing better than for you to be constantly asking Gambit for advice on this since he basically created the workflow for it single-handedly. This doesn't mean the tedium of making endless grass and ground tiles, since those are covered in the EHZ tileset.
You'll be given 3 months to rough this out. We're committing ourselves to helping you out with this, but rest assured—this is where the community section of the community project comes in. There's no better way to achieve the transparency so many have talked about.

Why Hill Top Zone? It's practical, from an asset creation standpoint, and the vast majority of EHZ has been completed. As you're well aware, the two share many pieces in common, and since EHZ's art is what we're basing expectations on, this will form a good base to get things rolling on. We're still lacking a really solid, jaw-dropping music track for the level. Also, I doubt any of you would complain at having two zones available in the alpha. Currently that's EHZ and EHZ only because that's what exists and what's polished. If you want HTZ in there, work together to make this happen.

Once the needed assets for Hill Top have been done, we'll be directing you to a new area to focus on.

To prevent confusion from clogging down this process, there are a few strict rules to follow:

-The S2HD staff will regularly interact with the community to approve your works. Needless to say we've got our lives and the alpha release on our priority list, so don't expect a reply after 5 minutes from your post. We'll get back to you as soon as we can.
-We encourage everyone to take part in it, even if some of you won't have your first shot at a given asset approved; until the deadline you can continue to improve them if you want them to be included.
-We will not tolerate useless bickering over tiny details, so be prepared to contribute in a useful way. The artstyle is set and kicking. Do not propose different artstyles and complain over it.
-What's developed for S2HD is for S2HD-use only. While we do not hold any legal property over it, it's a basic form of respect for the artists who have put hours of passion and hard work into it. Stealing / leaking will prevent us from sharing any sources.
-All artists must have complete access to the Database, so PM myself or Vincent your username and desired password in order to start submitting your own revisions.
-Upon hitting the deadline, the S2HD Staff will review all of your work and where it is needed update it to be further tweaked before final import to the engine.

If you've got any further questions related to a particular area, these are the guys you need to reach through PM:


Character Art: Vincent
Level Art: Gambit
Badnik & Bosses: Cerulean Nights
Backgrounds: Cornet Theory
Visuals & Animations: Scanline99
Music: ScubaSteve
General Q&A: Canned Karma

Database overhaul and topic cleanups will begin shortly. If you have pieces you're working on for HTZ currently, don't post them just yet. The new thread will be up soon as well.

[kazade]

First, I'll introduce myself. I'm a software developer, I've been hanging around on these forums for a long time now admiring the artwork and the enthusiasm of the community and waiting to hear about what is going on with the engine, because being a programmer, I'd be curious to see the code.

Kazade

It really sounds like if you got your hands on the code, you would work wonders with it. For your information, it has been said—somewhere, at least—that the current engine is a cleaned up, ported version of the S3&K engine. Perhaps you could use your 20 trial member posts sparingly and PM the Core Team, namely LoSt. and get your fingerprints on this project. If you could work your way in, maybe you could make the changes the rest of us are fighting for.
That would almost make you our Ben Franklin if I'm not mistaken.

Unfortunately I don't have time to commit myself to the project at the moment. If the staff did open up everything then of course I'd contribute patches, fix bugs etc. when I could. That said, even if I did have time, absorbing another member into the S2HD staff clique isn't going to solve the issue, I find it unlikely that a new member would have much of a say.

LoSt, if you are reading, I'd love to know your reasons for keeping the source closed, I fail to see how it brings you any benefit. Opening the source would give you testers and more developers and would result in cleaner, better, more stable code and faster development. It would also allow for a whole array of new projects based on the code, even different games with different characters (look at OpenArena, AlienArena, Tremulous etc. all based on Quake 3 which was open sourced). You open it, you open up a load of possibilities, you keep it closed and it will never be as good as it could have been.

So to sum it up, if it was open I (and likely many others) would contribute, as it's closed I won't. Until that changes I'll resume my silent watching.

P.S. How do I stop the 20 post limit?

That is a complete snub in my opinion. I'm sure you didn't want to come off that way, so I'm telling you it very much did. L0st has a right to his code. It should not be questioned. That's like asking me why I don't open my house up to everyone so they can see everything. The way I see it, it's a privacy issue. It's his. This is not a community project in the traditional sense, I think that should be rather obvious at this point. And why is that a bad thing? It's lead by a team that would like some others to contribute or give suggestions and such. That doesn't mean they have to accept everything or let you see everything they're doing. It's not fair to expect that of them.

LOst does have a right to his code, but this is supposedly a community project, how can someone contribute to the engine if they can't see the code? What I'm saying is that LOst must have a reason to not take advantage of all the benefits opening the code would bring. So, I'll ask again, LOst would you mind sharing your reasons why you believe keeping the code closed will be more beneficial than opening it? Is it a general fear that you'll lose control of the code?

And this doesn't have to do with the issues of "how" people can contribute, or the lack of communication, or whatever. If you want to address that, that's fine. But I think you're expecting too much, and it would annoy me greatly if someone told me "unless you make everything you're doing open to the public, I'm not helping you." I'd just laugh at the person and go on. It's fine to disagree with things, but being perceived as "needy" or "demanding" makes everything you posted irrelevent.

Show me how to contribute code and I'll help like I said. Joining in with the staff and not paying attention the community is not an option for me, I'm sure there are other programmers hovering around that would contribute if it was easy to. About my post being irrelevant, well, I've posted my advice, you guys can take it or disregard it, that's your prerogative. But I'd like to think what I said had some effect on the announcement Canned Karma just posted.

As it is I don't have time to join as a full time member. I have a bunch of other responsibilities that I've been letting slip recently (like running http://nehe.gamedev.net/ and reviewing articles for http://www.gamedev.net/ and helping to fix bugs in the upcoming Ubuntu 10.04 release, and fixing the DirectDraw surface ref-counting in Wine and I have my own personal projects on top of that - just in case you wanted evidence for my "snub").

Also, to whomever it was that said "this is a professional project now and should be closed" - erm, yeah sure, because open projects are never professional (e.g. Apache, Linux, Wine etc. etc.). sigh.

@Canned Karma - Thanks for the announcement, definitely looks like a step in the right direction to me. Nice one! (Although my reservations about the closed source engine still stand) I'll continue to hover around the forums, I might even attempt some artwork when time permits (I can basically find my way around Inkscape).

This post has been edited by kazade: 18 March 2010 - 03:48 AM

[MaximusDM]

Sounds good! Once you clean up/organize both the forums and overhaul the database, hit us with specific progress as far as what is DONE(give or take possible minor adjustments at anytime), what is virtually considered DONE (currently being worked on by staff), and what NEEDS to be done (give specifics as to what we should be working on), artwork that has been worked on but deemed UNFINISHED (concept art, submitted artwork with conflicting art style, unapproved art, unfinished art, denied art) in order to help artists toward the creation of a piece of art seeking approval.

Provided links to work files when available and label and link the artist's profile who submitted and/or posted them.
Many times posted artwork is hosted on hosting sites, if possible upload it to the overhauled database to avoid broken links and lost artwork postings.

I don't know if the art guidelines on the tutorial page or where is up to date. But I'd guess it probably isn't because its been ever changing since the start of 'vector art only'.
Only you guys know how the engine works. So you need to tell people the specifics of how the engine handles the artwork, resolution, amount of colors, tiling, number of animation frames, transparencies, file type, file size, ect. if they are to submit artwork aimed at approval.

With Hill Top Zone sharing so much of Emerald Hill Zone and with Emerald Hill Zone being currently for your eyes only, we need to know what is going to transfer over to Hill Top Zone (ie the art is done) and be much more specific in what NEEDS to be done. Refer to the first paragraph. If there has been concept art, unfinished art, unapproved art, denied art, lay it all out for artists to view and take it from there.

Now, once people start submitting/posting their artwork in the new topic pages you create: KEEP THEM UP TO DATE. ALWAYS. SO THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. Obviously filtering out artwork that doesn't attain a certain standard if there are multiple takes on certain pieces of artwork to the point where the first post is becoming unorganized (I don't think it will happen, but just a precaution).

If you don't have Sonic 2 HD staff or FORUM staff doing this cleaning we will be in the same boat we are now. If you don't have enough people or willing people, promote some forum members and assign them a topic to keep tidy and updated which is a relatively simple task as long as you keep up with it. That is one way of letting people contribute, especially those who want to contribute and aren't artists.

[kazade]

Just one other thing. It might be a good idea to store the currently accepted artwork in an open revision control system (like SVN) for a few reasons:

1. Everyone can see what is going on at a certain point in time
2. You can replace artwork with better versions, but always will be able to revert back to a previous version
3. Everyone can get local copies of the artwork to make their own improvements to any artwork for consideration

[Vincent]

Just one other thing. It might be a good idea to store the currently accepted artwork in an open revision control system (like SVN) for a few reasons:

1. Everyone can see what is going on at a certain point in time
2. You can replace artwork with better versions, but always will be able to revert back to a previous version
3. Everyone can get local copies of the artwork to make their own improvements to any artwork for consideration

The Database already has all these functions, however you must be registered to use them.
For an instance you can use it to update your own art revisions, so if there will be 3 rexons and 4 trees proceeding in approved quality they'll be categorized under rexon and tree entries.

Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
No.

Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.
You want to help us out as a programmer?
Then go for a 3D Special Stage engine, especially if you have the professional skills to pull it off.

Be ready for the overhaul guys.

[zemulii]

Thanks for the update . Alright, I'm satisfied (can't have everything our way, but it's a very nice compromise)! Can't wait to see how everything turns out. Thanks for listening and considering!

[ICEknight]

Just one other thing. It might be a good idea to store the currently accepted artwork in an open revision control system (like SVN) for a few reasons:

1. Everyone can see what is going on at a certain point in time
2. You can replace artwork with better versions, but always will be able to revert back to a previous version
3. Everyone can get local copies of the artwork to make their own improvements to any artwork for consideration

That's how things worked in the beginning, with the Inker database... until things went secret and it stopped being updated accordingly. I agree that it's a very important part of the community project as such, and keeping it up to date would prevent unnecesary revisions or even duplicate work.

[kazade]

Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
No.

Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.

Heh, you have a low opinion of people.

So I assume the engine is tested on all graphics cards and different driver versions? I also assume that it's cross platform, and bug free and fully optimized? These are things that more developers can help with. If LOst doesn't want to open the source then fine, but it's exactly equivalent of closing the artwork submissions - it's not in the spirit of a community project. All I have asked is the reasoning for keeping it closed, he doesn't have to respond, of course he doesn't, but I'd be curious to know how keeping it closed is more beneficial for the project than opening it.

You want to help us out as a programmer?
Then go for a 3D Special Stage engine, especially if you have the professional skills to pull it off.

As I've repeatedly said, I don't have time to do anything major, but if the code was open and I discovered a bug, or I could see an improvement or optimization in the code then I would submit a patch. Just like millions of programmers do to other open source projects. Anyway, I'd assume that any 3D special stage engine would integrate into the existing code - which I can't see :p

Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the freedom and efficiency you get when working with some really good open source teams, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt if you like.

[Shadic]

Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
No.

Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.

Yeah, that reflects great to the community.

[Kirinja]

It would also allow for a whole array of new projects based on the code, even different games with different characters (look at OpenArena, AlienArena, Tremulous etc. all based on Quake 3 which was open sourced).

This is why the source code should remain closed imo. The last thing S2HD needs now is a million spinoff games based on the same engine. You do have some valid arguments for opening the source code to the public but in my opinion I think it should just remain closed.

[Jayextee]

Last thing, is about the almighty LOst's engine open source request:
No.

Insisting on the subject makes me read clearly that those keeping asking, are more interested on having the source then actually being interested on S2HD programming status, which currently does not need any help.

This reeks of both paranoia and arrogance. Surely, like the art, a shared workload with a bunch of talented people in this field would yield better results. After all, unlike art which can be completely subjective, programming is a technical skill and can be done correctly. Is LOst so proud/ashamed of his code that he doesn't want others to taint/improve it? Is it using some super-duper new technology he doesn't want to reveal until he knows the world is finally safe from the impending doom in 2012? Maybe all his comments are in dactylic hexameter and his little secret is a thing he wants to keep to himself?

I honestly can't think of a good reason to keep the codebase closed, personally. :3