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#16 User is offline Rolken 

Posted 10 March 2008 - 04:30 AM

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View PostVangar, on Mar 9 2008, 10:51 PM, said:

It wouldn't need mad skills. It would just need a similar engine to sonic 2, a feat I've seen most of the coders reprogram in C or something.

You're either vastly overestimating the resources available to you, underestimating what it is you're asking, or both. An excellent full-time coder might be able to pull off an engine and the necessary utilities to power it in 1-3 months, and you're dealing with a community of technically adept but still inexperienced enthusiasts, hardly any of whom have ever actually worked on a real game development project. Every Sonic engine project I know of that's got anywhere has required at least one rewrite cycle, so unless you get somebody sufficiently motivated to spend their whole summer coding for you and they know exactly what they're doing from start to finish, I would be popping champagne if finished code rolled off the production line before 2009.

edit: whoops, totally missed LocalH's post. Are there not any situations in which the game cycles palettes within a level itself (waterfalls)? But yeah, I would be surprised if using an emulator is not by far the superior option.

edit2: also Gens is open source.
This post has been edited by Rolken: 10 March 2008 - 04:34 AM

#17 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 10 March 2008 - 04:31 AM

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View PostLocalH, on Mar 10 2008, 08:06 PM, said:

http://www.sys2064.com/emudx.htm

All we need to do is do this with a MD emulator, and then make the art packs. There's also no real limitation on the pallet - if you're replacing MD tiles with external ones, then those external ones could be anything - even 32bpp RGBA PNG. Sure, it might add CPU consumption over top of the emulator itself, especially if you were to use 32bpp RGBA PNGs and thus required alphablending, but I don't think that'll be a problem for most modern computers (and you could always have more simplified 8bpp tiles as well for slower computers). The only possible issue I could see would be supporting tiles that, on the MD side, use multiple pallets throughout the game - but then again the emulator could check for that and either load the same upgrade tiles with a different pallet, or load entirely different tiles (imagine having EHZ and HTZ with the same basic feel but with subtle differences in the tile art, which would give each zone a little bit more of an independent identity instead of HTZ being "the EHZ clone with a few slight differences").

On a tangent, the same thing could be done but instead of generating a 2D image, the emulator peeks the game's RAM and generates a suitable 3D scene (what I like to call 2.5D, sort of like the Smash Bros. camera angle). This would be more work of course, and each individual game would have to have separate support (the S1 support could be used as a base for S2 and S3/S&K though).

I'd be happy to see both of these happen, and I'd also be willing to test them to make sure that nothing is broken. I'd expect to see the former way before the latter, but either one would be fucking epic.



That would be beyond awesome, and exactly what would be needed for this. Now, do we have anyone here up for the job? As soon as someone was to make something like this, I'd get right onto making high definitions of levels.


View PostRolken, on Mar 10 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

View PostVangar, on Mar 9 2008, 10:51 PM, said:

It wouldn't need mad skills. It would just need a similar engine to sonic 2, a feat I've seen most of the coders reprogram in C or something.

You're either vastly overestimating the resources available to you, underestimating what it is you're asking, or both. An excellent full-time coder might be able to pull off an engine and the necessary utilities to power it in 1-3 months, and you're dealing with a community of technically adept but still inexperienced enthusiasts, hardly any of whom have ever actually worked on a real game development project. Every Sonic engine project I know of that's got anywhere has required at least one rewrite cycle, so unless you get somebody sufficiently motivated to spend their whole summer coding for you and they know exactly what they're doing from start to finish, I would be popping champagne if finished code rolled off the production line before 2009.

edit: whoops, totally missed LocalH's post. Are there not any situations in which the game cycles palettes within a level itself (waterfalls)? But yeah, I would be surprised if using an emulator is not by far the superior option.


But im asking the full time coders that pop in here, im not really asking for a full community project with everyone pitching in. I think your overestimating what really needs to be done, drawn graphics don't need spectacular coding, and if we could manage to use, for example, a rewrite from Taxmans engine to support larger png files, really isn't that much, is it? (isn't it XG or something now too?) The emulator rewrite sounds like a good idea though. The waterfalls, when called for or used, could be replaced with a set of images depending on the call for each palette?

The N64 Emulator had it done, its not impossible. Once it was done (I didnt expect it to be created super fast), it really wouldnt only be me who would benifit from it anyway.
This post has been edited by Vangar: 10 March 2008 - 04:40 AM

#18 User is offline Sik 

Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:52 AM

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View PostVangar, on Mar 10 2008, 07:31 AM, said:

But im asking the full time coders that pop in here, im not really asking for a full community project with everyone pitching in. I think your overestimating what really needs to be done, drawn graphics don't need spectacular coding, and if we could manage to use, for example, a rewrite from Taxmans engine to support larger png files, really isn't that much, is it? (isn't it XG or something now too?) The emulator rewrite sounds like a good idea though. The waterfalls, when called for or used, could be replaced with a set of images depending on the call for each palette?

Well, yes, reusing the engine of an already existing game would work too. Doesn't Retro Sonic already have two example Emerald Hill levels?

#19 User is offline Bibin 

Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:13 PM

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It does; other than the low-quality MP3 music, it's nearly perfect.

#20 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 11 March 2008 - 02:58 AM

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I checked out the demo, and all the files are in a .bin file, so its not much use for a test, I'd have to ask Taxman next time he is online on my MSN.

#21 User is offline Yarharhar 

Posted 11 March 2008 - 08:17 PM

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Oh, so as a hobby project about 5 months ago I made an emulator that did this (a modification of gens). I've been putting it off recently but I guess I could make the source available. The graphic replacement was complete and palette replacement was partially complete I believe. I was in the process of building in a graphic editor into the emulator (as trying to edit tiles in an external program for this reason is not-feasible).

I'll make the stuff available in a week or so (want to clean up/comment the source first)

#22 User is offline Rolken 

  Posted 12 March 2008 - 03:44 AM

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Well that's certainly random and awesome.

#23 User is offline Spexfox 

Posted 12 March 2008 - 05:36 AM

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If you need some high-def tiles it's possible I could pitch in with some level art or something. I know photoshop like the back of my hand.

#24 User is offline PsychoSk8r 

Posted 12 March 2008 - 07:06 AM

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View PostRolken, on Mar 12 2008, 08:44 AM, said:

View PostYarharhar, on Mar 12 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

Oh, so as a hobby project about 5 months ago I made an emulator that did this (a modification of gens). I've been putting it off recently but I guess I could make the source available. The graphic replacement was complete and palette replacement was partially complete I believe. I was in the process of building in a graphic editor into the emulator (as trying to edit tiles in an external program for this reason is not-feasible).

I'll make the stuff available in a week or so (want to clean up/comment the source first)

Well that's certainly random and awesome.


Agreed. One question though, will there be an option for music replacement too? That'd be extra-awesome =P

#25 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 12 March 2008 - 08:08 AM

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Wow, my plan might come way earlier then expected then. A few questions:

And editor inside the application, because any external one is not feasible? I'd just like to ask why? Making larger tiles with the same pixel by pixel editor similar to the other fan made ones might prove insanely difficult. So you sure there's no way to make something and have the emulator call to it? Yarharhar, would you mind if after the source was released, if I were to request some small features if it wouldnt bother you too much? just more arty ways to edit the new graphics rather then technical based (which im guessing it is now).

Either way, I greatly appreciate your efforts and can't wait to see this released.

Spex, as long as you don't mind sending me the graphics beforehand and I do a little work on them after if I feel I need to, im a little compulsive with some projects. =P.

EDIT:

PsychoSk8r, there already is a music replacement modified Gens that Qjimbo made some time ago. Maybe it was a seperate program that ran side by side Gens, I remember it being a Ram editing process, but I'm not too sure.
This post has been edited by Vangar: 12 March 2008 - 08:12 AM

#26 User is offline PsychoSk8r 

Posted 12 March 2008 - 09:14 AM

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Yeah, I'm aware of S2MP3 tool, I'd just love to be able to replace tracks in S1/S3K too.
Man, I'm looking forward to this just as much as I was the Proto release =P
This post has been edited by PsychoSk8r: 12 March 2008 - 09:32 AM

#27 User is offline Yarharhar 

Posted 12 March 2008 - 04:08 PM

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The reason the tiles need to be edited in-engine is that to make a mapping, you need to uncompress the graphics. This leads to having thousands of tiles with no way to really distinguish what they are (not to mention how this starts to take up space). One might be able to set the engine instead to click a tile and open an external editor, but I assure you for any large amount of tiles this gets to be veeerrry tedious. It's also far more efficient to see the result of editing in an actual game scene.

No worries though, I'm a heavy photoshop/flash user so I know that having a good UI is essential.

#28 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 12 March 2008 - 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(Yarharhar @ Mar 13 2008, 08:08 AM)
The reason the tiles need to be edited in-engine is that to make a mapping, you need to uncompress the graphics. This leads to having thousands of tiles with no way to really distinguish what they are (not to mention how this starts to take up space). One might be able to set the engine instead to click a tile and open an external editor, but I assure you for any large amount of tiles this gets to be veeerrry tedious. It's also far more efficient to see the result of editing in an actual game scene.

No worries though, I'm a heavy photoshop/flash user so I know that having a good UI is essential.


that's excellent. I wonder though, would it be possible to open an external editor with several tiles in the right order? I always found editing of tiles seperately was insane.

#29 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 13 March 2008 - 07:09 AM

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Here's a nice video I created full some fancy graphics I created as a test.

Also,
Posted Image
a huge ass image. I can't stress enough that this is just a test and more then likely won't be in any game versions (way to basic, just a simple enhancement with no new lighting or textures) What this does do, however, is show off how fancy higher detailed graphics could be in the game. It was a two step process to detail what I did there, and didn't take too long, using the original layout as a reference. (obviously more feasible versions could be drawn following proper limitations on where I CAN actually draw, not just wherever I feel on an image.)

Sadly, this project won't even hit the starting line without a dedicated programmer.
This post has been edited by Vangar: 13 March 2008 - 07:11 AM

#30 User is offline Sik 

Posted 13 March 2008 - 07:27 AM

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Wow, that palmtree and the grass rock! But now, the badnik and the ring... >_>

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