[W.A.C.]

Overlord, on 04 March 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

However I'll say that while I agree that Sonic Advance is an awesome game, 2 is far from one of their finer efforts, especially the fucking attrocity that is Sky Canyon Zone. 3 was better, but not up to the heights of 1. Rush was better than both 2 & 3.

Personally, I enjoyed Advance 2 more than 1 and 3, and view it as one of the best games in the franchise. When comparing the Advance games to Sonic Rush, I couldn't stand to even continue that game after the second zone. The physics were so awful that it ruined the gameplay for me. Not to mention the momentum based gameplay the series was known for was scrapped with boosting which was nowhere near as satisfying and fun. Also, while Sky Canyon Zone had way, way, way too many bottomless pits, the art direction was awesome, the music was memorable and great, and the level had some really cool level gimmicks I had a ton of fun with. I find the level really damn fun with Tails.





Just watching those videos makes me want to play the game again. Wonderful game.

Edit-

I would've much rather see Dimps try to make a Sonic Advance 4 for PSN/XBLA/PC than them attempting to make Sonic 4. While that's partially due to the fact they failed badly to make a worthy followup to Sonic 4 with Episode 1, I would have just really loved to see a Sonic Advance 4.

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 04 March 2012 - 09:00 PM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

steveswede, on 04 March 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

I was going to reply to all that nonsense, but then it would all be for nothing because I would get even more nonsense. I'm gonna do my best to stay away from replying to your conversations because it will save me from getting headaches and I'm sure others don't want to see the same arguments every few pages.

You're going to save yourself replying to all that 'nonsense' because you have nothing yourself to give. I made some valid points and showed some major flaws in your argument which you just can't save. I was actually thinking of messaging you instead to save others from looking at it, but if you're able to get away with just posting random quotes from people thinking it's genuinely enough for an debate, THEN posting a (now ironic) animation afterwards, then you're sadly mistaken.

Kind of you not to continue the discussion though, I didn't want to have to waste my time pointing out the obvious and so called 'defending' myself either.

Overlord, I disagree I wasn't as keen on Rush or Rush Adventure, and felt that in many ways they'd taken a step back. Sky Canyon is quite difficult because it places you in some awkward moments until you've played it for the tenth time. I feel that the first stage of Sky, as well as the end section of Egg Utopia Act 1 were quite pit-filled. However I'm really impressed with the rest of the game, and after a slight learing curve with those pits, they become quite easy to dodge. Nowadays I don't even have to think about them. I also think the offerings with the extra characters was brilliant, and something that should be done far in to the future.

At the moment, I'm really digging this team up things in Episode II. It's good to have a twist now and then which doesn't include changing the entire gameplay style. SEGA are now thinking INSIDE the box instead of trying to think outside it.

Edit; W.A.C, I would have welcomed Sonic Advance 4. They could have changed the music and slapped 'Advance' on to 4 and the expectations probably would have been different!

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 05 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

[ICEknight]

W.A.C., on 04 March 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

while Sky Canyon Zone had way, way, way too many bottomless pits, the art direction was awesome, the music was memorable and great, and the level had some really cool level gimmicks I had a ton of fun with. I find the level really damn fun with Tails.

Of course it's more fun when playing as Tails, and it might as well be even more fun when playing as the Debug object placement, because playing that level as Sonic was damn frustrating, something that should hint at the game not being that great.


I can't understand how anybody can say have Sonic Advance 2 as one of the greatest 2D Sonics ever made, while admitting to some levels being only possible to beat through trial and error... This is not Dragon's Lair, you're supposed to be able to beat the game in your first try, if you're good enough at it.



I know that some people enjoy frustrating games, but that's certainly not something I'm looking for in Sonic games, nor is something Dimps or Sonic Team have been actively looking forward to make... I hope.

This post has been edited by ICEknight: 05 March 2012 - 11:04 AM

[XCubed]

W.A.C., on 04 March 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Overlord, on 04 March 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

However I'll say that while I agree that Sonic Advance is an awesome game, 2 is far from one of their finer efforts, especially the fucking attrocity that is Sky Canyon Zone. 3 was better, but not up to the heights of 1. Rush was better than both 2 & 3.

Personally, I enjoyed Advance 2 more than 1 and 3, and view it as one of the best games in the franchise. When comparing the Advance games to Sonic Rush, I couldn't stand to even continue that game after the second zone. The physics were so awful that it ruined the gameplay for me. Not to mention the momentum based gameplay the series was known for was scrapped with boosting which was nowhere near as satisfying and fun. Also, while Sky Canyon Zone had way, way, way too many bottomless pits, the art direction was awesome, the music was memorable and great, and the level had some really cool level gimmicks I had a ton of fun with. I find the level really damn fun with Tails.





Just watching those videos makes me want to play the game again. Wonderful game.

Edit-

I would've much rather see Dimps try to make a Sonic Advance 4 for PSN/XBLA/PC than them attempting to make Sonic 4. While that's partially due to the fact they failed badly to make a worthy followup to Sonic 4 with Episode 1, I would have just really loved to see a Sonic Advance 4.

Exactly what is that "jumping jack" floating move that Tails is doing at the beginning of both of those videos? I'm being facetious here, but this, the slap hand of death, and extremely hard special stage access were the reasons I could NEVER see this series on par with the originals. I played all 3 while I was in high school and I never want to go back to either.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

XCubed, on 05 March 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Exactly what is that "jumping jack" floating move that Tails is doing at the beginning of both of those videos? I'm being facetious here, but this, the slap hand of death, and extremely hard special stage access were the reasons I could NEVER see this series on par with the originals. I played all 3 while I was in high school and I never want to go back to either.

Jumping jack? I'm not following that one?

To be honest, I agree with you slightly on all of your points, but I'm thinking back to being just thirteen years old and getting this game, and having to beat it being Cream using Cheese the Chao because I sucked at it, and then having to go back through being Sonic. All in all it took me about three hours being Sonic and there were many instances when the pits got me. That said, I hadn't played Sonic in over 6 years so I wasn't brilliant at it, and I also dusted off my MegaDrive around this time and found that I was equally poor at those games until having a few days warm up. After a few weeks (and still now) I can do these levels without too much of a thought about the pits. The same goes for all the classics, which also had their fair share of jump jumping moments, though obviously it was the railings people had issues with.

The hand of death could be avoided- it was only if it hit you directly at a certain pattern that you'd instantly die. Again, it's not too hard to avoid it either.

Lastly, the special stages were hard- but you had unlimited tries. It was a game which demanded you explore to get what you wanted, and it being a handheld game, had good longevity. Having harder to get to special stages can't be compared to the origianls, because Sonic 1 and 2 in particular were created as games to play through on a single playthrough (lacking a save file), whereas Sonic Advance 2 had one.

Like I said, I kinda agree, but I can't see those reasons being wholly justified. I even came back to Advance 2 recently and had just as much fun as the originals.

[steveswede]

@SpeedStarTMQ

I really didn't want to do this as I feel this is a real waste of time but you've left me no choice.


Almost everytime I see a post off you, you end up defending half arsed work like we should be greatful for. This community at Retro has a proportion of members that have a standard that needs to be met before we can be respectful to that game and it's not unreasonable to have this attitude when you are given the promise that the Sonic community will get a true to the core sequel to the classics. This doesn't mean that the other spinoff series like Rush, Advance, 3D versions will be treated with the same critique because they are not trying to be like the classics. And I really have to emphasize that they are "not trying" because you use those games to defend a company's ability that has never gotten the classic gameplay right "at all" Because you go on about the advance series that they are the closest games to the originals but the Advance series was a departue from the classics even if it wasn't major. The gameplay physics are a bit different and if you compare Advance 1 overall as if it was a true sequel to the Megadrive games, it just wouldn't sit with all of us that this was a better designed game like how Sonic 2 is better than Sonic 1 and Sonic 3 is better than Sonic 2. Even If Sonic Advance was Sonic 4 with it's new lick of paint, overall it would not suppass the likes of Sonic 3 and alot of us think that Advance 1 is miles better than Sonic 4.

And this is the thing right here. You know as well as all of us that DIMPS will never do something that is a worthy successor because they can't even beat the standards of a game they did that was not even part of the original series and yet you come out with comments saying Sonic 4 could be the best game since Sonic & Knuckles when the likes of retro members rip a trailer to shreds like we always do and find things in there that are worse than the Sonic Advance series. And when I criticized what you said saying you defend DIMPS effort with Episode 2, saying it could be the best game since Sonic & Knuckles yet say it will never feel exactly like the Megadrive originals in the same post, one comes to the conclusion that you don't expect Sonic 4 to ever be better than the originals, yet in response to that you said "where the hell did I say that" and then come out with saying "well I actually think they can't". Jesus fucking Christ you just went and proved what I thought your original post summed up and completely contradict yourself at the same time and yet your still adiment that you didn't, even with me quoting you several times from the same post.

I can only imagine how I'm only touching the icing of the cake on this whole subject with you because I don't think you have even grasped what some of us really want when we say like the Megadrive games. Generations was probably the closest we have ever got to a true classic game in modern times and I think it would be agreed across this entire board that if Generations was a game without modern Sonic, had original level art and Taxman's physics, then this would be the real Sonic 4. Don't think for one second that all the classic followers want 16 bit graphics and Megadrive chiptunes, which was explained in detail in that video at Sega of America. And while we are on the issue of Taxman's physics being in Sonic 4, it is stated in the wiki that Taxman contacted Sega in 2009 on his faithful remake (faithful is not perfect or mimicked you know) of Sonic CD with Episode 1 release in October 2010. The whole "Taxman didn't recreate faithful classic gameplay, it was already fucking there" is a complete invalid argument because we are not even talking about the quality of the game itself, we are talking about the fucking engine on how it's an improvement on the physics themselves. I feel I had to explain that because you later give the impression that adding Tails to the game is an improvement to the physics. LOL with that kind of comment it wouldn't surprise me that was the kind of attitude DIMPS had when they added Tails to Episode 2.

You have made clear though from your point of view that Sonic 4 will not be as good as Generations and Generations did not pass the full quality of the classics, even though it was very close, but you defend Sonic 4 mediocrity by saying it's a good effort and we should all just deal with the fact that this is the best we are going to get it (please for the love of god don't make me quote you again). And even though you have said that we don't know enough, really?! After the whole fiasco at Sega of America over Episode 1, I and others expected physics to be on par with what Taxman has done and I know many of us here expected the same so don't come out with crap that we should give it a chance when the trailer proved that the issues we had with episode 1 are not completely fucking fixed.

And stop saying realistic expectations because this is another example of when I say you defend mediocrity. Sega can and has proved Sonic 4 can be as we imagined it when we have got graphics like Generations and Taxman's physics ready there for them to use. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to DIMPS on Episode 2 only for the fact that Sonic CD's re release was only in December last year but I'm only doing that because DIMPS are a Japanese company and I'm sure the Sega Taxman dealt with was the American side. DIMPS may get away with it this time again, they wont the next.


Now before you start typing your nonsense, think about everything I've said and why I have come to conclusions I have with you. It amazes me you said I should read your post properly when honestly you need to pay attention to what you have said more than me which I have clearly pointed out in this post. Truthfully I don't even care if you do finally get what I criticized you on because I really can't be bothered to write another post as big as this again, it will just be a waste of my time so write what ever, I'm done.

This post has been edited by steveswede: 05 March 2012 - 01:18 PM

[XCubed]

SpeedStarTMQ, on 05 March 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

XCubed, on 05 March 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Exactly what is that "jumping jack" floating move that Tails is doing at the beginning of both of those videos? I'm being facetious here, but this, the slap hand of death, and extremely hard special stage access were the reasons I could NEVER see this series on par with the originals. I played all 3 while I was in high school and I never want to go back to either.

Jumping jack? I'm not following that one?

To be honest, I agree with you slightly on all of your points, but I'm thinking back to being just thirteen years old and getting this game, and having to beat it being Cream using Cheese the Chao because I sucked at it, and then having to go back through being Sonic. All in all it took me about three hours being Sonic and there were many instances when the pits got me. That said, I hadn't played Sonic in over 6 years so I wasn't brilliant at it, and I also dusted off my MegaDrive around this time and found that I was equally poor at those games until having a few days warm up. After a few weeks (and still now) I can do these levels without too much of a thought about the pits. The same goes for all the classics, which also had their fair share of jump jumping moments, though obviously it was the railings people had issues with.

The hand of death could be avoided- it was only if it hit you directly at a certain pattern that you'd instantly die. Again, it's not too hard to avoid it either.

Lastly, the special stages were hard- but you had unlimited tries. It was a game which demanded you explore to get what you wanted, and it being a handheld game, had good longevity. Having harder to get to special stages can't be compared to the origianls, because Sonic 1 and 2 in particular were created as games to play through on a single playthrough (lacking a save file), whereas Sonic Advance 2 had one.

Like I said, I kinda agree, but I can't see those reasons being wholly justified. I even came back to Advance 2 recently and had just as much fun as the originals.

Vid 1 @ 00:11

Vid 2 @ 00:17


I never want this to happen ever again with this series. Utilizing a controller button that is NEVER used with the exception of one level and without proper instruction is beyond disgusting. I'm happy this level of BS was a one off.

[Machenstein]

We should just hack Sonic Advance 1 so the title screen says Sonic 4. At this point, it's the best alternative we have.

[TheInvisibleSun]

Arique, on 05 March 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

steveswede, on 05 March 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Holy crap! After reading all of that, I think it's a good idea that we lock this thread until we get closer near release date. If we can do it for Episode I's release, then we can also lock this thread until Episode II is closer near it's final release date.

Or, we could, y'know, post about the actual game content instead of arguing over pointless and inconsequential things.

MastaSys, on 03 March 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

TheInvisibleSun, on 03 March 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Metal Man88, on 03 March 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

However, there are small things we can piece together from the videos, like that its soundfont is not the same as Episode 4's and those obnoxious chains of badniks are back and as dumb as ever.

The Badnik Chains are more frustrating here though, because they fit even than they did in E1. In this game so far, it looks like they are shoehorned in, almost as if they have once-per-stage quota.

"Hmm the stage looks good so far, but we gotta add that Homing Attack chain to make sure the Player still knows how to use it. Oh, and add a bottomless pit under it, so the player HAS to use the homing attack to progress. We really want to show that move off as something essential and important."

This is what it seems like is happening amongst the dev team. What I would like to see, are some of the fun ways Colors used the HA on some stages, I.e. using it as an option to reach a higher path, or even secret hidden paths (unseen badniks that could be behind, or below your camera view, as initially hidden HA targets). Even the Metallic Indestructible flying badniks were cool iterations of the "HA chain as a means of movement or navigation" concept.

I have to desagree a bit on the badnik chains for the homming attack, if you watched the fotage you can see, that some of them (two situations as far I can remember) aren't required to take the path they follow.
There is a ramp to the same way or an moving plataform for example, this is good thing, someone than just want to run foward can take the ramp, others that like to smash the enemies can use the homing attack.

Though you are right, it should be this way in every instance of the Homing Attack Chain. That way, that form of navigation is always an option, rather than a requirement.

SonicGenesis89, on 04 March 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

I really like how they gave Metal Sonic some backstory and gave some explanation as to what happened to him after his and Sonic's fight on Little planet. It also explains why Eggman used different robotic Sonic's (Mecha Sonic and Mecha Sonic MK2) in Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 and Knuckles instead of Metal Sonic. (I really believe the order for the classic games storyline's are this - Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, Knuckles Chaotix, and so forth.) I guess Sonic 4 would be before Chaotix now huh.

Not too sure about that; if Eggman wanted another Metal Sonic he would have made another copy, like he did in Chaotix. The Robot Sonic's in 2-3&K have a different functionality; they serve a different purpose than Metal Sonic does. Metal Sonic was more speed (and Sonic emulation) oriented, while the others were more attack oriented, as they are far more physically destructive than Metal Sonic normally is.

SonicGenesis89, on 04 March 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

One thing that totally bothers me is the bland level names. "White Park" is so lame. How about "Christmas Carnival?" Or something...White Park is just so...uncreative and boring...Sylvania Castle also doesn't sound very Sonic-ish to me. Sounds like a name of a place in an RPG game or fantasy game but not out of Sonic the Hedgehog. I'm looking forward to seeing updates on those last two levels we don't know as much about yet. Especially that Oil Ocean / Dust Hill Zone hybrid. I don't know why but that one really attracts me.

While White Park doesn't bother me that much as a name, Sylvania Castle feels a bit dull; it sounds too much like a real historical landmark/location. I miss the naming convention that Sonic 2 (and sometimes CD) had, where it seemed like the Zones were named after Sonic's first impression upon seeing the place (I.e. Casino Night, Oil Ocean, Wing Fortress, Tidal Tempest etc.). This way of naming has much more room for creativity, in my opinion.

Also, I too want to see more details from Refinery Rave Zone. I wonder what gimmicks will show up there? Ring shooter perhaps?

This post has been edited by TheInvisibleSun: 05 March 2012 - 02:19 PM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Seriously, I've messaged Steveswade, let's just ignore it and continue like it never happened. Embarrassing for me not him, like watching About a Boy when Hugh Grant's singing onstage. Cringy for the audience. Cringy that I even saw that film

XCubed, on 05 March 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Vid 1 @ 00:11

Vid 2 @ 00:17


I never want this to happen ever again with this series. Utilizing a controller button that is NEVER used with the exception of one level and without proper instruction is beyond disgusting. I'm happy this level of BS was a one off.

Oh, that. I liked that, it wasn't always needed unless doing a time attack run and was quite cool to mess about with. I can see why you're annoyed though, because it's not like they alluded to it inside of the game, rather the game manual, which I suppose I wasn't too bothered about. With any platform game I learn the moves by trying different buttons, and it wasn't the first GBA game to make use of the L & R buttons in those sort of ways IIRC. I did however have NO idea how Sonic's forward dash (pressing the directon twice) worked for a good year, and in bouts of madness accidentally did it when running at the bosses and getting myself harmed. That wasn't cool.

On that note though, I also didn't like the way Sonic Rush handled it- constantly destorying the scenery by throwing up the button symbols all the time and that constant "DLING DLING DLING!!!" every time you did a few tricks. At least the Advance 2 tricks were optional. Advance 3 made a bit more use of them actually, so that was nice.

Do we know yet how the new Ep II move will be handled? What buttons to press etc? it's been pretty difficult wading through half of this thread, as is probably obvious now. I would imagine they'd try and keep it simple seeing as it's essentially a "classic" (god I hate that word) game. Three buttons on a MegaDrive, how many in this? Hmm.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 05 March 2012 - 03:07 PM

[Machenstein]

If I recall, Sonic 2 Retro Remix uses those trick moves as well. They come in quite handy for reaching ledges you could have missed after jumping on a spring.

[Blue Blood]

SpeedStarTMQ, on 05 March 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Do we know yet how the new Ep II move will be handled? What buttons to press etc? it's been pretty difficult wading through half of this thread, as is probably obvious now. I would imagine they'd try and keep it simple seeing as it's essentially a "classic" (god I hate that word) game. Three buttons on a MegaDrive, how many in this? Hmm.

From the looks of it, the controls remain the same as E1 with one additional button (likely B, X or Y on 360) to execute a combo move. Press it in the air to fly, or on the ground to get funky.

[Lord Nero]

Blue Blood, on 05 March 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

SpeedStarTMQ, on 05 March 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Do we know yet how the new Ep II move will be handled? What buttons to press etc? it's been pretty difficult wading through half of this thread, as is probably obvious now. I would imagine they'd try and keep it simple seeing as it's essentially a "classic" (god I hate that word) game. Three buttons on a MegaDrive, how many in this? Hmm.

From the looks of it, the controls remain the same as E1 with one additional button (likely B, X or Y on 360) to execute a combo move. Press it in the air to fly, or on the ground to get funky.

I imagine Y/Triangle will remain for Super Sonic, to remian consistent with Episode 1, so B,X/Square,Circle for the team move ups.

My impressions so far with Episode II are positive. I love how the zones look so far, the physics do seem to have improved a bit, the story actually seems to have relavace once more with actual progression, and while weary of the team-up moves at first, actually have grown accepting of them now. I've been around Sonic since the original game in '91, and I know that nothing is ever gonna touch the originals, so I don't particularly care that Sonic 4 Episode whatever is unlike them. For all we know, since Sonic Team wanted Sonic 3 to be isometric at first, Sonic 4 back in the day couldve been that project, and sucked, so im content with what we have. Call me easy to entertain, call me an idiot, I don't care either way, Episode II looks great so far and I look forward to seeing what else is revealed or leaked.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

The only real thing I dislike about Episode II currently are the zone names- they're just not very... Sonicky?? Is that a word? So far we've got Sylvanian Families Zone and I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas Zone- they need to start spicing things up, this is is Sonic, a series well known for having awesome and wacky title card names. So far they've been very obvious. However, if they don't change them it's not exactly going to affect gameplay, so I can't really complain I suppose

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 05 March 2012 - 06:46 PM

[Guess Who]

SpeedStarTMQ, on 05 March 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

The only real thing I dislike about Episode II currently are the zone names- they're just not very... Sonicky?? Is that a word? So far we've got Sylvanian Families Zone and I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas Zone- they need to start spicing things up, this is is Sonic, a series well known for having awesome and wacky title card names. So far they've been very obvious.

I agree. We need more creative names like Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Ice Cap, and Mushroom Hill.