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MJ/Sonic 3 question Atcha-ooo!

#16 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 05 October 2006 - 11:42 PM

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Overlaying something doesn't automatically make it the same song... Hundreds of songs share a common beat, does that mean they're all in Sonic 3?

#17 User is offline WiteoutKing 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 12:17 AM

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nonono, I meant that so as to compare the two percussive tracks (which is also the entirety for Knux's theme).

When I get some time I'll try to put it together and see what people think.

#18 User is offline hxc 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 01:37 PM

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View PostHivebrain, on Oct 5 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but Sonic 3 tunes have only the vaguest of similarities (if any) to Michael Jackson songs. I think you people are hearing what you want, or expect, to hear. For example, "Blood on the Dancefloor" has a similar-sounding drum beat to the one in Knuckles' theme, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends.

I'm in 100% agreence, seeing as Roger Hector himself said the MJ songs were totally scrapped.

#19 User is offline WiteoutKing 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 02:59 PM

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Perhaps the ones that were made by MJ himself were, but those by his team remained? I dunno.

Actually, I could see if Scirocco knows anything about that particular bit.

#20 User is offline BadCopNoDonut 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 03:51 PM

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View Posthxc, on Oct 6 2006, 01:37 PM, said:

View PostHivebrain, on Oct 5 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but Sonic 3 tunes have only the vaguest of similarities (if any) to Michael Jackson songs. I think you people are hearing what you want, or expect, to hear. For example, "Blood on the Dancefloor" has a similar-sounding drum beat to the one in Knuckles' theme, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends.

I'm in 100% agreence, seeing as Roger Hector himself said the MJ songs were totally scrapped.

Yeah, but again, Stranger in Moscow. I don't have speakers at the moment to check the other stuff(School PC. :< )I showed it to some friends in my dorm, didn't fully explain what was up at first to get their reactions, and they were like "Holy shit, did MJ just completely rip that off from there, or vice versa?" I think there is still SOMETHING there, even if its just that. There's no way in hell both the S3 credits and Stranger in Moscow are going to have the exact same note progression(for lack of a better term) by pure coincidence. As for the Sega/Sonic Team brass saying that its gone, they could easily say it is in order to prevent a whole swarm of questions from coming their way about what was originally planned for Sonic 3. Plus I'm sure game magazines would even take interest if Sega outright admitted "Yes, MJ actually DID make some of S3's music." Plus the "Come on!" shouts in mini-boss music, and the shouts in other zones. Those vaguely sound like MJ(as best as it can through Sega anyway.) Call me stubborn or whatever else you want, but while I can agree that some zones don't sound like MJ's music, I will not buy it that its all gone completely.

#21 User is offline Jayenkai 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 04:25 PM

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I think the one thing that has to be clarified, though, is this..

Even if ALL the music in S3 were done by MJ, it doesn't neccessarily follow that the tunes will sound like his other tracks.

I mean, Dreams Come True (or at least "Guy from DCT".. forgot his name) did Sonic 1+2, and at best we've found about 3 of their songs that sound vaguely like (or identical!) to the Sonic tracks.

Near enough all of MJ's albums sound different to the next, why would the Sonic 3 soundtrack, therefore, sound the same as any other?

#22 User is offline hxc 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 04:57 PM

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Its possible that his other sound staff put music in, but not any of the ORIGINALLY COMPOSED, NON COVERED material that MJ did for the game

#23 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 05:24 PM

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View PostJayenkai, on Oct 6 2006, 05:25 PM, said:

I think the one thing that has to be clarified, though, is this..

Even if ALL the music in S3 were done by MJ, it doesn't neccessarily follow that the tunes will sound like his other tracks.

I mean, Dreams Come True (or at least "Guy from DCT".. forgot his name) did Sonic 1+2, and at best we've found about 3 of their songs that sound vaguely like (or identical!) to the Sonic tracks.

Masato Nakamura - he's the bassist for DCT.

View Posthxc, on Oct 6 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

Its possible that his other sound staff put music in, but not any of the ORIGINALLY COMPOSED, NON COVERED material that MJ did for the game

Yeah, it was his staff, not himself. I'm fairly sure I established this months ago, but I guess not...

We've found connections between the sound credits listed in Sonic 3, and the sound credits in the MJ albums which contained similarities to Sonic 3. I believe the only sure match we found was Cirocco/Scirocco, though.

#24 User is offline T.Q. 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 07:48 PM

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Here's an old post wrote in another Michael Jackson music thread on March 20, 2006. The purpose of copy and pasting this post is for reference purposes only (instead of digging through 16 pages of the old thread).

-----

Doug Grigsby III, not registered with BMI, nor ASCAP. He was involved as a musician on the keyboard for the movie "Ghosts" (1997) with Michael Jackson.

Bobby Brooks (name might be "Robert Sharon Brooks") is registered at BMI and ASCAP. He too was involved with the movie above.

Darryl Ross, not sure about. Registered in BMI with middle names "Lee" or "Edward" or no middle name. At ASCAP, there's a writer named Darryl Ross Neudorf. According to IMDB, he was only credited as the composer of Sonic 3.

Brad Buxer is not registered with BMI, nor ASCAP. He too was involved with the Michael Jackson movie "Ghosts." He also did the movie "Dangerous: The Short Films" (1993) and "Black or White" (1991).

*Geoff Grace, registered in BMI with the initial middle name "R" and is registered at PRS (Performing Right Society) as suggested at ASCAP. At PRS, he is named "Geoffery Trevor Grace." According to IMDB, he is part of a "pre-production" movie "Fingers Walking" (2005) as composer.

Cirocco is registered in BMI as Adrion Charles Cirocco and is credited to composing original music for the movie "Tapped Out" (2003). It appears the only reason Cirocco appears on BMI is because Cirocco is also the name for "Jones Charles Edgar Blair."


A website called Music Powers has the following information below with two composers and Michael Jackson as the artist:

Artist: Michael Jackson
Song: ?The Water? Sonic Cues ? (levels 2 & 3)
Company: MJJ / Pebbles Music / Sega Corporation
Project: Sonic The Hedgehog ? Game theme music cues
Role: Programmer, Additional Production by Cirocco and Arranger-Composer (with Brad Buxer)

-----

So, do I think MJ did any music for Sonic 3? Maybe not, or perhaps he participated indirectly in the sense that the staff asked for suggestions from Jackson on melodies.

Why did Sega hire these staff members?

Did any of these staff members participate in creating music for other games prior to Sonic 3? If so, then that may one reason why Sega hired them. If not, then maybe the music of Michael Jackson influenced the decision of the producers of Sonic 3 to hire the staff.

If that's the case, why is Jackson not credited in the game? Perhaps Sega does not wish to become associated with Jackson and scandals related to him.

Would any hint of association with Jackson today tarnish the reputation of Sega? Most probably not, since it's been over a decade ago (although that's just my guess).

If Jackson was indeed not involved in the creation of any musical cues from the game, indirectly or otherwise (and assuming that the latest interview with Jason Kuo was truthful), then why were these specific people chosen to create the music?

------------------------------------------------
*Incidentally, I've checked APM (Associated Production Music) and there is stock music by "Trevor Grace." Probably not the same person, but what I found is that Trevor Grace composed children's music for 'Carlin' (a production music library).

For the IMDB info on "Ghosts"
For the IMDB info on "Tapped Out"
For the IMDB info on "Fingers Walking" (pre-production)
For the IMDB info on "Dangerous: The Short Films"
For the IMDB info on "Black or White"

For the BMI info on Bobby Brooks and from ASCAP on Bobby Brooks
For the BMI info on Darryl Ross and from ASCAP on Darryl Ross
For the BMI info on Geoff Grace and from ASCAP on Geoff Grace (only the mention of "PRS")
For the BMI info on Cirocco

#25 User is offline WiteoutKing 

Posted 06 October 2006 - 10:32 PM

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For the record, I'm still in contact with Scirocco, he tells me he's looking to see if he can find/get a hold of "The Water". If we're lucky we may see something interesting come out of this.

#26 User is offline hxc 

Posted 07 October 2006 - 04:47 AM

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Um. MJ did not do the music himself (directed at T.Q). All of what he composed was original and not covered material! Roger Hector has said this on a number of occasions!

#27 User is offline mroelandts1 

Posted 07 October 2006 - 10:12 PM

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some guy from australian idol did a cover of "U2 Vertigo" that sounded just like the sonic 3 ending music. that was an OMG! moment for shure

#28 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 07 October 2006 - 10:36 PM

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View Postmroelandts1, on Oct 7 2006, 11:12 PM, said:

some guy from australian idol did a cover of "U2 Vertigo" that sounded just like the sonic 3 ending music. that was an OMG! moment for shure

Got a recording of that at all around? I'd like to see that for myself.

#29 User is offline mroelandts1 

Posted 08 October 2006 - 12:36 AM

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I could maybe get the video off the official website if it's still on there

#30 User is offline SamIAm 

Posted 15 October 2006 - 04:31 AM

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We know from Roger Hector's interview that MJ was supposed to do the music for Sonic 3 but was booted because of the scandal that errupted 3 months before the game was released. We also know from the credits of Sonic 3 that the people credited with the soundtrack's composition were associated with Jackson at one time or another. From this alone, we can derive a limited number of possible scenarios.

1. Jackson was brought in with a team of friends to write the soundtrack, was singularly booted, and the friends completed the soundtrack alone.
Very likely. It best explains Roger Hector's initial statements as well as the presence of Jackson's associates in the credits.

2. Jackson came in alone, was booted, but in his departure hooked up Sega with his friends who wrote the soundtrack instead.
Not especially likely. It's hard to believe that Sega would have wanted much from Jackson after the scandal, but someone may have listened if he named some good people to do the job in his place.

3. Jackson came in with friends to write the soundtrack together, was booted, but told friends to use his music with theirs anyway after he left and just not give him credit for it.
Fairly likely. The best argument that those who think Jackson's music remains in Sonic 3 have. This could only be proved or disproved by a testament from either one of those credited or Jackson himself.

4. Jackson came in with friends, and the friends were going to do pretty much all of the work anyway and just give credit to Jackson. When Jackson left, the only reshuffling that had to be done was in credit assignment.
Somewhat likely. From the start of Jackson's solo career, he only wrote about 1/3 of the songs on his albums. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to say that he would let something like this happen.

5. Jackson came in alone, wrote all the music, was booted, but arranged so that his music could be preserved by means of giving credit to a bunch of his no-name friends.
Somewhat likely. It's hard to reason why Jackson would have distributed the credit so widely, and it's also hard to suggest that he would let so much material pass out of his hands. Still possible, but probably just wishful thinking for hardcore Jackson fans.



So here's what I think:

I suspect it's number 3. To begin, take a look at the End Credits/Stranger in Moscow relationship. There's no denying how close they are. Now consider this: Stranger in Moscow is listed as being entirely written, composed and arranged by Jackson alone, and furthermore, the wikipedia article states that he wrote it while feeling lonely in Moscow while on tour. I highly doubt that some friend who would have written the song in Sonic 3 would have been there to give the chord structure to him at the time that he wrote it. Not to mention, Ice Cap Zone is indeed extremely similar to Who Is It, and that song as well is listed as being written, composed, and arranged by Jackson alone. Perhaps it's possible that friends gave him both of those melodies to use in his songs, but as a quick glance at the liner notes of Jackson albums shows, it looks like people who contributed to Jackson's albums were given credit for it.

Now what I really want all of you to do is take a step back and simply try to feel the style of some of these songs. Listen to the whole Sonic 3 soundtrack like this, and then go listen to all the songs that Jackson alone supposedly wrote across his whole discography (available via bittorrent). Now, I will begin by saying that some of the songs in Sonic 3 are too melodic and advanced to sound like MJ originals, which is why I suspect that his friends, the ones in the credits, came in with him in the beginning. But have a good long listen to the music from the 2P level select screen. This song, in my opinion, has not been discussed enough in this whole MJ/S3 affair. Now consider this:

1. The song structure and melody is, overall, pretty simple. Just like Ice Cap, Launch Base, and the end credits - the songs many of us suspect Jackson wrote - and just like all the songs Jackson wrote on his albums.

2. The second part of the song reeks with Jackson's musical style. Hear that semi-percussion instrument that first sounds on the beat, but then makes an offbeat, hiccup-like follow-up immediately afterward? Jackson, Jackson, Jackson.

3. This song was cut from the PC version of the game even though it does not contain a single instrument that could not be fairly accurately reproduced with MIDI.

Finally, Jackson has been said to be a little bit crazy by just about everyone, but he's also been said to be a fairly charitable guy, and that goes for his music as well. So in light of all the musical similarities, I believe that Jackson was invited by Sega to compose the music for Sonic 3, came in with a bunch of friends to help him tackle the large project, was kicked off when the scandals arose, and told the friends to go ahead and include his music in some form or another without giving him any credit. Years later, Roger Hector let it slide that Jackson was supposed to do the music for Sonic 3 but was canned, and then either out of trying to save his own ass or out of sheer ignorance, denies that Jackson's music ever made it into the game. Out of fear of legal trouble, nobody else says a goddamn thing, and the rest of us just sit here wondering.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

hxc, I'm sorry if I missed it before, but if you want to post any of Roger Hector's follow up comments verbatim in order to counter my arguments, by all means, please do.

And Witeoutking, it just so happens that "The Water", assuming this means Hydropolis zone, happens to be my favorite cut from the whole Sonic 3 soundtrack (specifically, the remix from the 2nd act). If you manage to politely bug Scirocco to the point that he gives you an original concept mix of this song, I will personally arrange for the pornstar of your choice to pull up to your house in a stretch limo and fuck your brains out for 2 hours. Either that, or I'll send you a PM jam PACKED with smileys.

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