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Re: Sonic Megamix

#16 User is online 360 

Posted 04 July 2016 - 01:50 PM

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View PostStealth, on 03 July 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

View Post360, on 03 July 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

Just one thing that came to mind. If Markey is willing to continue designing levels for the game then surely the project can continue with just two members? Why is this not possible? Sounds like all that happened between you two was miscommunication. Surely the project can push forward if Markey continues his level designing efforts? All it would take is Stealth agreeing to continue his own work. Correct?


You'd do best not to count on it. It'll be a good long while before I have time for my personal projects again, of which I have many, and two people is an extremely low number for a game with the scope of Megamix. It already has to be a "free time" thing, so even if we were confident enough to commit to it, we'd seem to be potentially looking at a few more years again. I'll accept anything Markey wants to do, but I won't say that the intended project will reach true completion. We're not in a position to make that claim, and to be perfectly clear, I'm not actually in a position to effectively manage a full project like that right now, especially if creating a "new team" were even a consideration

So, we're still pretty much where we were when I made my original post. I'm sorry, but there's no better way to guarantee that something comes still of this. This is exactly how you should expect it to be handled


Thank you for taking the time to directly respond to me so gracefully and elegantly. I do appreciate the insight. So regardless of MarkeyJester's willingness to continue the project remains cancelled then? Though you're willing to accept and implement any further work he develops? Sounds fair enough. Any idea how far away the final release of Megamix will be? By the sounds of it you're fully occupied with your contract work to the point that we're looking at a lengthy amount of time before you can commit to Megamix again. That's perfectly understandable and acceptable given that your career is your primary priority. I think I speak for everyone when saying we're willing to wait if you have objectives of higher importance. Your actual career comes first and personal projects are understandably secondary.

Thanks again for responding. As I've said it's positive to see an update on Megamix and get the conversation going. Looking forward to the final release.
This post has been edited by 360: 04 July 2016 - 01:52 PM

#17 User is offline Felik 

Posted 04 July 2016 - 02:16 PM

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Man, why can't a team/community project heavily associated with Retro work out for ONCE? I actually had hopes Megamix would be the first one.

#18 User is offline Icewarrior 

Posted 05 July 2016 - 10:28 AM

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Well Sonic CD, 1 & 2 Remaster happened, didn't they?

And Stealth said Megamix would see a final product one way or another with what has been made but its just gonna take a long while. That's still better than nothing.

#19 User is online 360 

Posted 05 July 2016 - 12:09 PM

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View PostIcewarrior, on 05 July 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Well Sonic CD, 1 & 2 Remaster happened, didn't they?

And Stealth said Megamix would see a final product one way or another with what has been made but its just gonna take a long while. That's still better than nothing.


Yeah exactly. We're still getting the game out of this as close to completion as can possibly be. Stealth has stated there'll be a final release of Megamix based on all the work that has been completed which is better than no release at all. Just echoing and reinforcing Ice's point here.

It might take a great degree of time but at least we're getting another release. Personally I can't wait to play it.

#20 User is offline MathUser 

Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:02 PM

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Only 2 levels left? That's almost enough to call it a finished game. Why not cut from the last completed level to the final boss, then to credits. Make the two unfinished levels selectable via level select code.

#21 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:09 PM

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Who said anything about "2 levels"?

Also, the game was broken enough in "4.0" state; there are even worse problems right now after some of the overhauls. The major point of another release is for it to be fixed and better-playable, which I don't have time to do right now

#22 User is offline MathUser 

Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:32 PM

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View PostMarkeyJester, on 02 July 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

View PostStealth, on 02 July 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

To make the point directly, the team no longer has active graphic artists, level designers, additional programmers, nothing; there's just me.

I would like to clarify here...

I have been designing levels for Megamix for quite some time, we only have two out of the seven levels left to make/redesign before completion.


He said it.

#23 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:46 PM

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View PostMathUser, on 05 July 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

View PostMarkeyJester, on 02 July 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

View PostStealth, on 02 July 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

To make the point directly, the team no longer has active graphic artists, level designers, additional programmers, nothing; there's just me.

I would like to clarify here...

I have been designing levels for Megamix for quite some time, we only have two out of the seven levels left to make/redesign before completion.


He said it.

Oh. Well, as I mentioned to him in private later, he was incorrect about that, for one. Second, though, even the ones with complete or nearly-complete graphic design are still pretty incomplete in several other aspects, not to mention any part of the game that's not a primary gameplay level in regular gameplay mode. We're not talking about the same Megamix from 2007 and earlier; it was supposed to go beyond a rearranged Sonic 1. Either way, it's overall too incomplete, ugly, and bugged to just whip up a release that I'd rather have people play than "4.0" or any such build. I'm working exclusively on my current contract job with a strict schedule

#24 User is offline Spanner 

Posted 07 July 2016 - 01:14 PM

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I honestly do not feel that releasing the character moves as part of the source code is the right move.

Indeed, I feel that a lot of the source code being released is simply going to amount to more spoon feeding where most people will be lazy and just insert things without looking at modifying things. In return it makes these hacks a lot more uninteresting and certainly would just end up becoming more of a chore.

That's just my opinion, I know there's people out there that are happy to see more source code released to the public but it just seems like it's going to promote laziness if everyone can have Tails flying and the homing attack moves for example.
This post has been edited by Spanner: 07 July 2016 - 01:14 PM

#25 User is offline Ritz 

Posted 08 July 2016 - 11:39 PM

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View PostSpanner, on 07 July 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

I honestly do not feel that releasing the character moves as part of the source code is the right move.

Indeed, I feel that a lot of the source code being released is simply going to amount to more spoon feeding where most people will be lazy and just insert things without looking at modifying things. In return it makes these hacks a lot more uninteresting and certainly would just end up becoming more of a chore.

Solution: Don't play those hacks.

It's about time we learned that accessibility and an overabundance of free content never ruined any community. Say some teenager recycles Stealth's code wholesale: Worst case, his hack is ignored, he gets to have some fun tinkering with code on a superficial level, and he might even learn something in the process. Best case, he takes these character abilities and puts them to use in a way that's novel and fun, providing the same appeal as any basic mod of a larger game. Anyone who thinks ROM hacking has ever had anything to do with innovation or prestige really ought to get over themselves. We've mostly been reinventing the wheel from day one, and anything novel we've accomplished in that time was still probably only made possible through copyright infringement.
This post has been edited by Ritz: 08 July 2016 - 11:41 PM

#26 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 12:28 AM

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If it were packaged and advertised as some kind of "beginner Sonic hack pack" I might be against it.
If it's being released generally as part of the collective of rom hacking info, I'm all for it.
Otherwise you could argue that anything anyone makes or figures out should not be shared due to potential abuse or misuse in poor works.

#27 User is offline Clownacy 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 09:30 AM

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I think the problem with hacking is finding a balance between technical expertise and game designing talent. All these handouts certainly add to a game designer's array of tools, but atrophies their technical skills to create those tools. Someone technical enough can cook up whatever feature they want, but one without depends on someone else to provide it for them, and if that someone isn't around, the person's forced to either improve themselves enough to become independent, or compromise. You know what I'm talking about, the kind of person that wants custom music in their hack, but settles for porting S3's driver, and giving GHZ AIZ's music, like so many hacks before it. If that option wasn't there, maybe they'd have taken the opportunity to learn how to do what they really wanted. That's how things worked for me, when I stopped being a copy/paste noob: A guide didn't tell me how to create a branch instruction, so I had to figure out how to make one. There's wasn't a guide for fixing the HUD bug in S1, so I figured out how to do it myself. The SCHG guides were split between Hivebrain and SVN/Hg/Git, so I had to learn how to port code. And now, because I released the uber-hand-holder sound driver, fewer people feel the need to learn how SMPS works, because of the opportunity to compromise.

Of course, this all varies depending on the person, so it's not right to say this will only harm everyone. Likewise, you can't claim this will only benefit everyone, either.

I may be defending Spanner, but I don't share the same stance as him: After ReadySonic, Sonic BOOM, and Sonic 1 CD, this feels like a drop in the ocean. These things tend to fade into obscurity anyway, as people continue to use their disassemblies from 2005. Who knows, having the code out there may coax people into learning how to port it to their disasm.

#28 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 01:38 PM

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Posted Image

I don't see the problem here, if I'm honest. Code being out there means more examples for people to learn off. Lazy people will be lazy regardless.

#29 User is offline Billy 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 04:27 PM

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I'd just like to say that not everyone's forte is writing code. Some people excel at making art, music, or doing level design. By releasing "hand holdy" code, you're allowing people that are less technically inclined a leg-up. Emphasis on less; Sonic hacking is still very technical, so there's still a barrier to entry. But yes, therel will always be un-creative lazies, but speaking as biased proponent of open source software, I think the pros outweigh the cons.

That said, we're not entitled to Stealth's code. Nor are we entitled to not have his code, as odd as that may sound.

#30 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 08:18 PM

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Exactly. If someone is inclined to learn on their own they will. If someone is lazy they're just gonna be lazy.
And having ready made content available does not automatically mean lousy results. The availability of these things could just as well mean a great piece of work made from them, by a talented hand, and may not have happened if they didn't have the time or inclination to do it all from scratch which may have ended up worse anyway, or nonexistent. Someone may be good at everything but programming, so having the code available could be the final link to a great piece of work. And anyone interested in learning will have examples to analyze. Ultimately it's for the better. To condemn the sharing of content and knowledge out of worry that more lousy things will exist does nothing but hold back potential and leave us more without than with. I'd rather have good and bad works than nothing at all, which altogether are just more things to learn from. One could even argue that requiring everyone to do things from scratch will just leave us with poor works anyway, due to the time and uncertainty that goes with it, and with lazy folks you get even worse than that. What it all boils down to is, the more the merrier. I do not understand this mentality that everyone should be required to do everything from scratch or else it doesn't count. It's some misplaced ideal of integrity or self importance that will ironically fail to achieve the implied benefit as it only makes sense on paper and as far as I'm concerned is just an egotistical affair, and probably part of why Retro has a reputation of "elitism". It's important to encourage doing things for oneself and independence, but the deliberate withholding of knowledge and content for this reason is only a negative and is not in the best interest of others.
This post has been edited by Mr Lange: 09 July 2016 - 08:21 PM

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