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Sonic 3 Complete S&K Collection on MD, with fixes, Sonic 3 music and many options.

#31 User is offline Hayate 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 01:57 AM

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WHS.

Also, oh my. That's a lot of stuff on that wiki page.

QUOTE
You will no longer lose barriers if hit from the blue spinning platforms in Marble Garden.


Oh if only this hack retained the S&K title and derived themes...

#32 User is offline Tiddles 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 05:50 AM

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I've put together a tiny IPS file to patch the Sonic & Knuckles main themes (25, 2A, 2C, 32) back into the posted build if you so desire. It does nothing else - the Knuckles and miniboss themes are still the Sonic 3 versions, the credits are still the S3C 0517 version, complete with now-inconsistent Sonic 3-style end sting, and the fade before the act complete screen doesn't come back.

I'll try to throw together a few more musical variations when I get a new main version out, whenever that may be. This particular change will become a one-byte patch when I get that together, which is handy, isn't it? You could even just wham in a GG code to do it on that version.

QUOTE (ICEknight)
The last split second of Sonic, Tails and the Death Egg falling down the screen still looks as bad as it did in S3&K, though.
It really does. I was always disappointed that nothing was added to that scene for S3K - you know, Death Egg lands in the background maybe, Tails flies Sonic off after it? As it is, it's the least satisfactory explanation of a zone transition in the whole game IMO. It's another thing like moving Flying Battery that I would really like to have done properly, but sits lurking somewhere on the "maybe" agenda for want of time to do it right and a concrete idea of how it should hang together.

#33 User is offline Chimpo 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 07:03 AM

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QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 26 2009, 01:28 AM)
QUOTE (ICEknight)
However, I'm not too fond of:
QUOTE
Super/Hyper must be invoked by pressing B+C for a double jump (Megamix style).

...Just because it's not intuitive at all, with all the main Sonic games using just one button for everything, and all. =\


Indeed, it's a shame to lose the simplicity, and short of giving the game away in the manual, it'd be nigh on impossible to find the transformations at all if it had been set up this way originally. But ultimately I couldn't think of a better solution to the enforced transformation problem, which was one of my biggest problems with the original, personally. Triple jump is an elegant idea for Sonic, but Tails relies on that anyway for flight, and I also wanted to make sure I didn't make impossible any manoeuvres that you could do in S3K - which includes jump-super-glide, jump-super-fly, jump-hyper-dash.

It's probably a bit of a pain if you usually jump with A though. I might look at making it anything-plus-B sometime. I've used C for a long time due to debug.


Why not just map it to Up on the D-Pad when you're in the air?

I mean, it's not like that piece of shit direction is used ever in the games.

#34 User is offline Spanner 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 07:29 AM

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QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 27 2009, 10:50 AM)
I've put together a tiny IPS file to patch the Sonic & Knuckles main themes (25, 2A, 2C, 32) back into the posted build if you so desire. It does nothing else - the Knuckles and miniboss themes are still the Sonic 3 versions, the credits are still the S3C 0517 version, complete with now-inconsistent Sonic 3-style end sting, and the fade before the act complete screen doesn't come back.

I'll try to throw together a few more musical variations when I get a new main version out, whenever that may be. This particular change will become a one-byte patch when I get that together, which is handy, isn't it? You could even just wham in a GG code to do it on that version.

QUOTE (ICEknight)
The last split second of Sonic, Tails and the Death Egg falling down the screen still looks as bad as it did in S3&K, though.
It really does. I was always disappointed that nothing was added to that scene for S3K - you know, Death Egg lands in the background maybe, Tails flies Sonic off after it? As it is, it's the least satisfactory explanation of a zone transition in the whole game IMO. It's another thing like moving Flying Battery that I would really like to have done properly, but sits lurking somewhere on the "maybe" agenda for want of time to do it right and a concrete idea of how it should hang together.

Perhaps one day it'll be possible to make the Death Egg crashing on the mountain part of the Sonic & Knuckles title screen its own cutscene, then going to MHZ after that (omitting the rest of the title screen stuff).

#35 User is offline SwissCM 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 07:48 AM

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Just throwing a few ideas out there, take them or leave them I guess.

1. Have the surfboarding intro to Angel Island if you have no emeralds, have the Super Sonic intro if you have emeralds, have a Hyper Sonic intro if you have Hyper emeralds.
2. Super Sonic has the Sonic 3 powerup music, while Hyper Sonic has the S&K powerup music.
3. Create a super version of tails, basically only invincibility and increased flight speed but no flickys. Hyper version could be same as original.
4. Same deal with Knuckles only... different in some way? Maybe allow some kind of way to gain lift while gliding so you can glide upwards a bit while Hyper?
5. Have the original level order of Flying Battery after Carnival Night, before Icecap. Will require making new cutscenes which could be difficult but it would be really interesting to see.
6. Add Knuckles' glide ability to competition mode.
7. Quite a few of Knuckles' levels seem half arsed. Carnival Night for example. It would be nice to see his levels polished a bit better (have him actually fight a goddamn boss on Act 2 for example).
8. Totally bring back the Stranger in Moscow-ish music for Sonic's ending.

#36 User is offline Hayate 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 10:47 AM

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QUOTE (Tiddles @ Dec 27 2009, 10:50 AM)
I've put together a tiny IPS file


I love you.

QUOTE
Stuff about the transformation buttons


After having actually played the hack, B+C isn't too bad, since if I hold B and press C I transform, or if I hold C and press B I also transform.

Chimpo: Up+Jump might work for transforming, but it wouldn't work at all for de-transforming (nor would any other direction) since Hyper Sonic needs that to do an upward dash.

QUOTE ( @ Dec 27 2009, 12:29 PM)
Perhaps one day it'll be possible to make the Death Egg crashing on the mountain part of the Sonic & Knuckles title screen its own cutscene, then going to MHZ after that (omitting the rest of the title screen stuff).


This.

QUOTE (SwissCM @ Dec 27 2009, 12:48 PM)
1. Have the surfboarding intro to Angel Island if you have no emeralds, have the Super Sonic intro if you have emeralds, have a Hyper Sonic intro if you have Hyper emeralds.


Sonic starts off Super because he already had the emeralds from Sonic 2. Which is also why Knuckles knocks them off and steals them. It wouldn't make sense to have the alternate intros you're proposing as it would imply the game actually took place twice (or more). If there's going to be an alternate intro that you see in a clear game, it would have to be that Knuckles isn't there at all and Super/Hyper Sonic simply speeds into the act with 50 rings.

QUOTE
2. Super Sonic has the Sonic 3 powerup music, while Hyper Sonic has the S&K powerup music.


Hell naw. I like to listen to the stage theme. The speedup/slowdown way is brilliant.

QUOTE
3. Create a super version of tails, basically only invincibility and increased flight speed but no flickys. Hyper version could be same as original.


This. Mainly so that you only need 7 emeralds for Super Tails.

QUOTE
4. Same deal with Knuckles only... different in some way? Maybe allow some kind of way to gain lift while gliding so you can glide upwards a bit while Hyper?


Knuckles already has distinct Super/Hyper forms. Hyper Knuckles has infinite air underwater and kills all enemies when he glides into a wall at speed.

QUOTE
5. Have the original level order of Flying Battery after Carnival Night, before Icecap. Will require making new cutscenes which could be difficult but it would be really interesting to see.


This was already suggested, and yeah.

QUOTE
7. Quite a few of Knuckles' levels seem half arsed. Carnival Night for example. It would be nice to see his levels polished a bit better (have him actually fight a goddamn boss on Act 2 for example).


This. Knuckles' version of CNZ needs to be totally redone (hell, I usually just make him grab on to Sonic's route in act 2 when I play as him). Also, give him a ring or three at the start of ICZ2. And let him fight the epic LRZ boss!

Oh, and to add a note or two of my own...

1. Please, please fix that damn Hyper Sonic in MGZ2 boss bug. The one where it glitches up the graphics and then kills you. I wouldn't mind if you let the glitchy graphics stay, but at least fix the death. :P
2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.
This post has been edited by Hayate: 27 December 2009 - 01:37 PM

#37 User is offline GeneHF 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 05:43 PM

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I smirked a little fighting the Sandopolis Midboss with the S3 Midboss music. That's actually the one midboss where I think the S3K one might be a tiny bit more fitting just because it seems to be more of a "OH SHIT" moment instead of just another Robotnik brand baddie.

The IPS patch is much appreciated, BTW. It's interesting how this hack has opened up a pandora's box to editing S3/S3K, coupled with the 0517 prototype build of Sonic 3C. I look forward to seeing what sort of goodness comes of this.

EDIT: I noticed some small bugs while playing through, if you want to look into them.

-The HUD palette is a little messed up in Angel Island Zone. The back-shading of the letters is white.
-The music for Flying Battery Zone Act 2 doesn't begin playing after beating the boss and breaking the egg capsule during the cinematic. I don't know if you made this intentional or not.
-Knuckles' palette is a little off in Hidden Palace Zone (the shoes)

That's all I've noticed that seems a little off so far.

#38 User is offline SMTP 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 09:58 PM

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QUOTE (GeneHF @ Dec 27 2009, 05:43 PM)
-The HUD palette is a little messed up in Angel Island Zone. The back-shading of the letters is white.


Thats actually normal...

#39 User is online Covarr 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 11:15 PM

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QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM)
2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.

Actually, what I think would be cool, is to play the S&K miniboss, boss, and invinciblity music if you're playing as Knuckles, and the S3 musics if you're playing as Sonic or Tails. I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game, and you'd still have to choose only one title screen music.

#40 User is offline Vague Rant 

Posted 27 December 2009 - 11:55 PM

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QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 28 2009, 03:15 PM)
QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM)
2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.

Actually, what I think would be cool, is to play the S&K miniboss, boss, and invinciblity music if you're playing as Knuckles, and the S3 musics if you're playing as Sonic or Tails. I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game, and you'd still have to choose only one title screen music.

Alternatively, you could have the Sonic 3 music play in Sonic 3 zones, and the S&K music in S&K zones.

#41 User is offline GeneHF 

Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:19 AM

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QUOTE (SMTP @ Dec 27 2009, 09:58 PM)
QUOTE (GeneHF @ Dec 27 2009, 05:43 PM)
-The HUD palette is a little messed up in Angel Island Zone. The back-shading of the letters is white.


Thats actually normal...

Really? Huh... I never noticed it until now.

#42 User is offline Drex 

Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:33 AM

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QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 27 2009, 11:15 PM)
QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM)
2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.

Actually, what I think would be cool, is to play the S&K miniboss, boss, and invinciblity music if you're playing as Knuckles, and the S3 musics if you're playing as Sonic or Tails. I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game, and you'd still have to choose only one title screen music.

I second this.

#43 User is offline Puto 

Posted 28 December 2009 - 01:47 AM

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QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 28 2009, 04:15 AM)
QUOTE (Hayate @ Dec 27 2009, 07:47 AM)
2. Shouldn't the minibosses play the S&K theme when you fight them as Knuckles? To me the S3 Knuckles' theme and S3 miniboss theme were always related to each other (you can even hear the former played inside the latter), so hearing Knuckles' theme while playing as Knuckles just... doesn't seem right.

Actually, what I think would be cool, is to play the S&K miniboss, boss, and invinciblity music if you're playing as Knuckles, and the S3 musics if you're playing as Sonic or Tails. I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game, and you'd still have to choose only one title screen music.

For the record, the S&K miniboss theme is still in the game (the song was there twice in S3K), and still plays when Eggman steals the Master Emerald.

#44 User is offline Hayate 

Posted 28 December 2009 - 11:44 AM

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QUOTE (Covarr @ Dec 28 2009, 04:15 AM)
I dunno how feasible this is, though, because it means having both songs in the game


Both soundtracks already exist in the game, since the S3&K ROM is just the S3 ROM slapped on the end of the S&K one.

The only reason I had trouble with them was because I was too lazy to find out how to change the bank for an individual track, so I copied the tracks themselves from one location to another and there wasn't enough room in a particular bank for all of them. Since Tiddles is using the disassembly it was probably easy to change the banks.

#45 User is offline Aquaslash 

Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:34 PM

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Someone had the idea of using the S&K miniboss for the actual fights, but using the s3 miniboss for the Knuckles fight. That makes sense IMO since it'd be like building up to the final confrontation.

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