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Project Direction

#31 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 04:51 PM

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Let me stress, people—this is not an "idea" thread; this is a thread in which we can set up some solid foundation on which to brainstorm ideas and make some progress. This thread needs to be on track.

#32 User is offline The Shad 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:07 PM

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Well if we don't establish some leadership, we ain't gettin' nowhere.

Consider my name thrown into the hat. I think I have a decent grasp on a direction and am completely willing to work with others.

#33 User is offline Shadix 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:33 PM

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Make a small consistent team. This pretentious community involvement stuff is why this project isn't getting anywhere. Sure, feedback from here is necessary, but when there can be page long rants about whether or not there should be a pause menu or if you don't like the color of a starpost, it's not really getting anything done.

Get an official team together that you can trust, make them audition for spots on the team if necessary, get this community crap out of this (privatize the development for the most part), and to the people in charge, figure out how you are going to go about managing your different departments internally. Thats what its going to take to get this hunk off the ground.

If you don't believe me, when was the last time you saw something released in completeness that was taunted around the community? You don't, most of the active contributions to the community come from those who don't spend time selling their game out like a cheap hooker. (E02, Retro-Sonic, Damizean's engine work)

Basically, I'm saying screw public opinion and make your damn game.
This post has been edited by Shadix: 06 May 2009 - 05:38 PM

#34 User is offline Andlabs 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:49 PM

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View PostShadix, on May 6 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Basically, I'm saying screw public opinion and make your damn game.
What if the damn game IS public opinion? That's a community project. HOWEVER,

Quote

but when there can be page long rants about whether or not there should be a pause menu or if you don't like the color of a starpost, it's not really getting anything done.
This is what I'm talking about. The community is not prioritizing properly. Fuck the starpost colors, let's just design the basic art for a reasonable starpost and worry about colors when the level colors are finalized, etc. Unnecesary stuff last!

Whoever is chosen to be the leader needs to know how to do two things to lead this type of community:
  • Prioritize
  • Arbitrate
Example situations:
  • A user has posted an image of a badnik. A few people are complaining that the size of the eyeballs on the badnik are too big. The leader should realize that this will not end and will add "eyeball size" to an internal list of things to fix. When the badniks are all finalized, the eyeballs can be requestioned.
  • A user has edited another user's work to supposedly improve on it, but the original user is not happy, leading to a flame war of edits to supposedly remedy the situation. The leader chooses the best one, or leaves the choice to a vote (we have polls on the forum, after all).
  • A user has a single problematic color in his sprite, leading the palette people to complain. The leader tells everyone to wait for the sprite's position in the game to be determined, and then tells the palette people to fix the palette of the sprite or level so that both work together. The palette people will argue amongst themselves, but may wind up taking a vote.
No doubt these have happened in the previous two incarnations of this project. If the actions listed above aren't taken, I don't know what would keep the specific problem from recurring.

PS - I'm not promoting myself above; I already tossed my hat into the ring in my first reply to this thread.
This post has been edited by Andlabs: 06 May 2009 - 06:02 PM

#35 User is offline Phos 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 06:35 PM

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Personally, I think we should use E02 (Or is it EO2?), but use the Saturn as the target system. That's what I feel like a spiritual successor to Sonic 3 would be on.

Quote

When it comes to actually getting people to work on this project, I think I know what Chimpo did wrong and how to avoid it.

1. Have a thread for people to show of what they can do, a sort of recruitment thread.
2. If it's good, we give them a specific job to do (such as "Make this levels trees" or something). Now they actually have an idea what they should work on, they know what we want from them rather than a generic "Contribute" command.
3. Not argue over every damn pixel. Everyone has a slightly different view over how stuff is supposed to look. If there's something about it clashing with the style, we should have enough artists on the project that they'll be able to notice it for themselves.

Basically, make the project slightly aloof, but not so much that we're completely cut off.

I'd like to operate as a "talent coordinator", sort of like a producer, but produces have responsibilities that don't exist in in this project.

Just throwing that out there.


And I'd also like to design some levels or badniks and such.

#36 User is offline Dr. Mecha 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 07:36 PM

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View PostShadix, on May 6 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

Make a small consistent team. This pretentious community involvement stuff is why this project isn't getting anywhere. Sure, feedback from here is necessary, but when there can be page long rants about whether or not there should be a pause menu or if you don't like the color of a starpost, it's not really getting anything done.

Get an official team together that you can trust, make them audition for spots on the team if necessary, get this community crap out of this (privatize the development for the most part), and to the people in charge, figure out how you are going to go about managing your different departments internally. Thats what its going to take to get this hunk off the ground.

If you don't believe me, when was the last time you saw something released in completeness that was taunted around the community? You don't, most of the active contributions to the community come from those who don't spend time selling their game out like a cheap hooker. (E02, Retro-Sonic, Damizean's engine work)

Basically, I'm saying screw public opinion and make your damn game.

So what you're saying is that this shouldn't be in Community Projects to begin with.
This post has been edited by Dr. Mecha: 06 May 2009 - 07:37 PM

#37 User is offline The Shad 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:04 PM

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A small consultant team I like but members should still be allowed to contrbute

#38 User is offline Phos 

Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:22 PM

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I'm thinking my idea for a talent coordinator would be a useless go between in this environment.

But I still stand by the importance of actually assigning people tasks, otherwise the artists won't know what to do, the designers don't know what kind of things they should be putting in levels, all the problems that we've been seeing in this project.

I also think we need to make up some kind of requirement for suggesting ideas for stages and enemies, we need to come up with some kind of structure for this.

So, how are we going to decide who's actually going to be the leader? We've been going around in circles for like 3 pages now.

#39 User is offline test-object 

Posted 07 May 2009 - 07:35 AM

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View PostPhos, on May 7 2009, 03:22 AM, said:

So, how are we going to decide who's actually going to be the leader? We've been going around in circles for like 3 pages now.

A poll won't work. The members don't know enough about the contestants or their leadership skills. Tweaker, as a longtime administator, should be able to know who can be trusted with the heavy tasks of sorting the good ones out and maintaining peace:

1. Pixel Art
2. Concept Drawings + Level Design
3. Musician
4. Programmer

The last forum layout was actually flawless:
-Level Design
-Sonic Sheet
-Level 0 - Artwork
-Level 0 - Badniks
-Music
-Programming
-Project Feedback
This post has been edited by test-object: 07 May 2009 - 01:04 PM

#40 User is offline Rokkan 

Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:25 PM

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If people here are really willing to get this project forward, I'd love to have a leadership in art direction. I don't like to brag or to say what I can or can't do, so I'll just say that I know about sprite styles, about drawing and painting and about creating surreal backgrounds. Feel free to doubt or judge.



...
and I promise I won't get pricky ):

#41 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:41 PM

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View PostAndlabs, on May 6 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

[*]A user has posted an image of a badnik. A few people are complaining that the size of the eyeballs on the badnik are too big. The leader should realize that this will not end and will add "eyeball size" to an internal list of things to fix. When the badniks are all finalized, the eyeballs can be requestioned.

This sort of approach to the problem is something that should have happened from the beginning - removes the whole OMG ONE PIXEL IS OUT OF PLACE issues straight away.

And for what little it's worth, a "Sonic 4" most likely would have been on Saturn, some time around launch, but seeing as obviously this isn't doable a Megadrive version could also have been released in late '95/early '96 (see how late SMB3 was on NES, compared to SMW, which would have basically been Sonic 5), so a MD ROM would make sense - and here's why it works for us:

* Many hackers in the scene who know the ins and outs of the hardware
* A solid engine to port off (like S2 was built off S1 and S3&K was built off S2, an S4 would have been built off S3&K
* Known limitations to work at/around
* MANY well-established community artists
* EXPERIENCE ON THE PLATFORM

The only hack to date that has worked well and had multiple team members has been Megamix, a game unashamedly based off the S1 codebase. Imagine if you will a Sonic 4 based off the S3&K engine, complete with S3&K style mini-cutscenes, that builds on that game and takes it further.

#42 User is offline Mikel 

Posted 07 May 2009 - 06:16 PM

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View PostTweaker, on May 6 2009, 11:48 AM, said:

- Target platform/engine being used
I would say E02, as I think I would be a good engine for the game, and If I can, I would try to see if I can port the game to the Genesis.
- Project leader(s)--nominations and decisions
I would like to join the team, I'm pretty good a level layouts, and palletes.
- Intentional limitations—yes/no
If you have tools, then yes, if you don't have tools, then no.
- Programmers, musicians—where the talent is coming from
I will try to contribute music to the Project
- Anything else of direct relevance to the project as a whole
All I can think of is Concept Art and Level Design for the project.


My Personal Thoughts.

#43 User is offline Phos 

Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:49 PM

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So lets see, positions that I think will need to be filled:

Director
"Producer" (Maybe, think we need one?)
Lead designer
regular designers would just be members
Lead Artist (I nominate Rave, for actually making something that almost looks finished)
Same deal for regular artists
Lead programmer
Programmers would probably need to be accepted by the leadership
Music director
same deal with the designers and artists.

Something that I think was kind of glossed over was the importance of requesting that people actually state that they're interested in doing X/Y/Z for the project and getting an assignment, rather than just "lurk the project forum for a while, then post some random thing that we don't actually need"

In all honestly, I think that the platform this should be on should be decided upon by the leadership after they have been decided upon. And please don't complain about the director actually directing.

#44 User is offline Andlabs 

Posted 08 May 2009 - 05:35 AM

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View PostPhos, on May 8 2009, 12:49 AM, said:

Director
"Producer" (Maybe, think we need one?)
Lead programmer
Programmers would probably need to be accepted by the leadership
Music director
same deal with the designers and artists.
I could do any of these; but of course I would like to help write music as well.

Quote

Something that I think was kind of glossed over was the importance of requesting that people actually state that they're interested in doing X/Y/Z for the project and getting an assignment, rather than just "lurk the project forum for a while, then post some random thing that we don't actually need"
That's an interesting idea. But rather than giving an assignment, just have them pick and choose certain badniks/objects/levels to work on.

Quote

In all honestly, I think that the platform this should be on should be decided upon by the leadership after they have been decided upon.
Given the right programming, it could run on any platform. (Well, maybe not Atari 2600 =P )

Quote

And please don't complain about the director actually directing.
That's just stupid. It's a project, not the United States government. The director is supposed to direct, and he is trying to do so for the betterment of the project.

#45 User is offline Shadix 

Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:50 AM

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View PostDr. Mecha, on May 6 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

View PostShadix, on May 6 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

Make a small consistent team. This pretentious community involvement stuff is why this project isn't getting anywhere. Sure, feedback from here is necessary, but when there can be page long rants about whether or not there should be a pause menu or if you don't like the color of a starpost, it's not really getting anything done.

Get an official team together that you can trust, make them audition for spots on the team if necessary, get this community crap out of this (privatize the development for the most part), and to the people in charge, figure out how you are going to go about managing your different departments internally. Thats what its going to take to get this hunk off the ground.

If you don't believe me, when was the last time you saw something released in completeness that was taunted around the community? You don't, most of the active contributions to the community come from those who don't spend time selling their game out like a cheap hooker. (E02, Retro-Sonic, Damizean's engine work)

Basically, I'm saying screw public opinion and make your damn game.

So what you're saying is that this shouldn't be in Community Projects to begin with.


While I doubt that Community Projects work at all in an online setting where noone is required to take responsibility for themselves, what I'm saying is that the way the community contributes to the project should be handled in a different manner. Like, the community promoting representives to develop the game.

Think of it like government, we elect people who have authority because if the public had direct authority nothing would ever get accomplished. The community should still have a say, but at the same time, those elected into those positions should have the directive to do their job without having every ounce of their work scrutinized every step of the way. In order for shit to get done those who have these positions need to be able to design content and whatnot without having the community deliberate for hours over miniscule details.

Have community auditions, have people post detailed resumes of their work and what they've done in the past, etc. This should be like a job interview if you're serious about it. Set project goals, deadlines for content, put your new members through trial phases to test their commitment and ability. You need people that want to work towards this goal, not people that want to have a little fun and boost their egos.

Plus, by having a consistent team, it alleviates the bound inconsistency problems that are currently plaguing the other big community project here.

In a sense you could I'm saying that it should be more of a community-sponsored project rather a directly community involved project. You can bitch all you want, but when this game hasn't got anywhere in another year because your sticking to this whole "WE CAN DO THIS AS A COMMUNITY" idea you guys are going to have noone to blaim but yourselves. IIRC this project didn't even become a community project until whoever was in charge original got a hardon at the idea of having an entire community under his control after being a pretentious, passive-aggressive asshole to other communities where these games are commonplace.

The only reason I even bring this up is because I've ridden this community-driven rollercoaster too many times in the past, being a veteran member of the fangaming circle. It traditionally happens whenever someone gets the bright idea to try to make a 3D Sonic fangame, but this isn't too different. It always seems like a grandiose and great idea in concept but never works out in execution. (like communism)
This post has been edited by Shadix: 08 May 2009 - 03:20 PM

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