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Overview Oh dear, I've made quite a mess

#31 User is offline Mobiethian 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:06 AM

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I'm so glad that Chimpo is the leader now.. and I am really liking what he is doing. The idea of working on one level at a time, starting with Tropical Zone is the best idea yet. That should have been done in the first place. Go Chimpo!! :thumbsup:

#32 User is offline Machenstein 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 07:10 PM

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Shouldn't we draw out the level designs for these levels first? I believe Yasuhara drew out the level designs on graph paper first. Then the developers, in turn, would base the tile sets around whatever he drew on the graph paper. Isn't there a similar way we could approach this method?
This post has been edited by Machenstein: 22 January 2009 - 07:26 PM

#33 User is offline Slingerland 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:22 PM

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Quote

I believe Yasuhara drew out the level designs on graph paper first. Then the developers, in turn, would base the tile sets around whatever he drew on the graph paper.

Graph paper is a pretty good idea.

I, personally, don't think it matters what order you go in, whether graph paper comes first or second. Just, uh, do stuff or whatever. I've done it both ways and it hasn't really been a problem.
This post has been edited by Slingerland: 22 January 2009 - 09:23 PM

#34 User is offline Ritz 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:51 PM

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View PostMachenstein, on Jan 22 2009, 04:10 PM, said:

Shouldn't we draw out the level designs for these levels first? I believe Yasuhara drew out the level designs on graph paper first. Then the developers, in turn, would base the tile sets around whatever he drew on the graph paper. Isn't there a similar way we could approach this method?

Point. Personally, I think it's best to first finalize the visuals with some basic flat tiles that'd be common to every zone, which is mostly what's been done here. Then I'd sketch out a rough level design, not paying much attention to the fine details, but just suggesting the overall feel of the zone's flow; Take Collision Chaos, for example, which is characterized by sudden spikes in the landscape with steep slopes, and a large emphasis on bouncing around. Then I'd tailor the following tiles and objects to reflect these characteristics, and once I had a relatively complete tileset, I'd start pasting the tiles together according to the initial sketch until a proper level layout materialized.

But then, that's only how I'd approach it. For level design with S3K's level of depth, I'd think one would have to exercise a certain degree of spontaneity with the tile placement, and this sort of setup would allow for that. Conforming to a complete sketch of the layout would put a stopper on said spontaneity and might lead to the creation of unnecessary tiles, while level design without a guide would wind up flat and aimless. Both aspects would have to be fleshed out concurrently. Either way, whoever's in charge of the level design should probably get to work on a sketch right now.
This post has been edited by Ritz: 22 January 2009 - 09:59 PM

#35 User is offline filmzombie 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:53 PM

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Call me naive, but being a newcomer to this thread I wasn't entirely aware work wasn't being done by any programmers. Seeing so much contribution and level art I was just under the impression people submitted ideas/concept art and programmers were taking the best and politely leaving out the worst. In the meantime I figured somebody (at least one person) was designing the first demo levels for general feedback.

The fact that this wasn't the case bemuses me a little, but maybe its because I didn't understand that by "community project" the general assumption was that people were expected to fulfill all of this as some kind of "psychic mind".

Now I understand what was going on though, I like the way this new thread has been structured. One zone at a time is a good idea. If people can't/don't wish to contribute to a single zone they can design art and concepts for the later zones and save them for when its neccessary. Its much quicker and more effective that way.

However, whilst the single thread is good in the sense that it deviates from mindless tangents there are still a few things I feel need addressing.

I in particular like contributing as you no doubt have guessed to boss, gimmick and badnik concepts. However, after reading the single thread for Tropical Zone...it feels like because the whole thread is so dedicated to level art...posting such concept art will be misplaced, deviating from the conversations and provoking several tangents in the same thread. So, might it not perhaps be best to include a seperate thread dedicated to gimmicks/badniks/bosses for the Tropical Zone? I see the same thing has been done with character sprites and music.

Also, whilst I understand the importance of avoiding meaningless conversations, the lack of the general thread for the entire project seems wrong somehow, as if direction and feedback for the whole game has somehow disappeared. For example, I raised a point regarding gameplay which I felt was neccessary as it effected the whole game, including Tropical Zone. It was a small point. It was regarding Insta-Shield, but it was one that effected the whole game none-the-less. Now though, the lack of the general feedback thread means simple, polite enqueries or suggestions like this cannot be included for the purposes of the bigger picture.


So, would it be possible to bring back the general feedback thread but impose strict rules or regulations upon it, if of course the worry is that people will get too far ahead of themselves?

It just feels that otherwise, if people get TOO scared of the speculative side then we may just have spiralled from one vice to another.

#36 User is offline Chimpo 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:02 PM

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I knew I forgot something.

#37 User is offline filmzombie 

Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:07 PM

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Excellent, cheers :psyduck:

#38 User is offline STHX 

Posted 23 January 2009 - 11:39 AM

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View PostChimpo, on Jan 22 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

Starting today, I want all focus to be on the Tropical Level, and that we focus on getting the level design, level artwork, badniks, bosses, music, sound effects, programming, character, etc. to function for this level.

I like the new direction of the project, because we finally have a specific target.

But, for how much the first zone can be considered important, there is something else, in my opinion, that is equally, or maybe even more, important:

The full Sonic Sprite Sheet
Why?
First, whatever kind of demo version we will ever do, we need a full sheet for Sonic, otherwise it will have no playable characters. Second, Sonic also decides the general style of the other characters art and of everything not related to level art. Third, every other character sprite sheet will be based over Sonic's one.

In the end is not something very different from working only on one zone at time. However the main difference is that if the full Sonic sprite sheet is a long term target. Not every spriter is good with both character art and level art, and this happens because there is a mayor difference in the general style of the stage art and of the character art. But that also means that if someone can't contribute to the first stage, it doesn't mean he/she can't contribute on the Sonic sprite sheet.

Everything circles around Sonic in his games, that's why I think that finalizing his sprite sheet is important.
After all he is the first object in the classic games ;P

Lucky for us, we are very close to the final Sonic sprite. What I'm saying now, however is to work only on Sonic until we finish his sprite sheet, and do not touch Tails and Knuckles before completing it. Yes, they will be in the game, but that doesn't mean they must be completed today. Scrap Tails. Scrap Knuckles. Scrap Metal Sonic. None of them matter if Sonic is not complete.

In my opinion, in a week we must reach the true final Sonic sprite. And then, before working on something else, we must finish his sprite sheet.

#39 User is offline nineko 

Posted 23 January 2009 - 11:59 AM

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A placeholder sprite sheet (e.g. S3&K's) can be enough for a concept demo, at least to fill in the gaps while the final sprite sheet gets completed.
But yeah, I agree that the Sonic sprite should be quite a priority.

#40 User is offline Chimpo 

Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:38 PM

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I thought the sprite sheet was pretty much a given.

but yeah, we need to finish that bad boy soon.
This post has been edited by Chimpo: 23 January 2009 - 03:42 PM

#41 User is offline OSM 

Posted 24 January 2009 - 05:56 PM

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YES, thank you Chimpo. I'm also an artist so I'll try to contribute and lend some C+C now and then.

#42 User is offline Hez 

Posted 30 April 2009 - 08:31 PM

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Party really died...

#43 User is offline Ayla 

Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:58 PM

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I didn't say it

#44 User is offline STHX 

Posted 01 May 2009 - 07:33 AM

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I hoped this moment would never come, but it seems there is nothing to do now.

Never like now, this project is on the verge of death. I always supported this project since the first days, just as many others, and to me it just feels like a waste of talents to kill it now.

But as of today, the last hope is going out.
Still, part of me wants to see this project alive, so I'll try one last effort, and I'll try my best to not be a dick and to express a valid point.

First of all, I'm sorry Chimpo, and I'm sorry Tweaker (since you always tried to defend him), but stop pretending this isn't your fault (and more important, stop pretending this is our fault).
Being the leader is something you underastimated. Every word you say, every thing you do, has an impact on the whole project, being it positive or negative.
I'll quote you from another topic:

View PostChimpo, on Mar 26 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

I'm getting my shit together after a recent shit turn of events. My actual life takes a much higher priority than making a game for you whiny kids.

What you find wrong in this sentence?
First, if you have troubles with your real life, and this problems do not allow you to contribute in any way for months (because the last time you posted was the 1st of April, and now it is May, and because the last time you actually posted something useful it was more than a month ago), then maybe it is time you give your role to someone else.
Oh, yeah, this is a "community project" right? So, as you said:

View PostChimpo, on Mar 26 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

Besides, if this project is suppose to be a "community" effort, shouldn't, you know, the community put some effort instead of depending on key people?

We all must do something, right?
And here comes the second problem over that sentence:
Why should we help you? Each one of us has a real life. Some, like me, must study their way out of the college, others have a job. Not all of us have tons of free time. So, the most important thing the leader must do is to stimulate us in helping the project, give us a reason to use our free time for the project. And, quite frankly, calling us whiny kids doesn't help. However, the thing that you missed since the beginning is that you, as a leader, must do most of the job.
This part sounds very hypocrite, but it is true. Is the leader's work the one which stimulate others to help. I wanted to avoid putting Sonic 2 HD in here, because I feel these are 2 different projects, but, think at the beginning: How many months passed before someone else than Vincent started doing something for that project? And as of today, who is still doing most of the job (especially the most important thing: Sonic's Sprite Sheet)? Other members were moved into helping by Vincent's awesome work. But in this project you, Chimpo, just posted a few frames, or just posted a few pics, and then pretended that we must do most of the work.
Now, you would had right if no one actually did something. But things aren't like this. Many members (mostly the ones who supported the project since the beginning) posted many things lately, being it minor or not. So why we suddenly stopped?
Again, it is your fault. You are stubborn, everyone here knows it, and it is hard to make you change your mind. So dammit say something! How could we know if what we are posting is good if you don't tell us? You're the leader, and so the final decision is always yours! You accepted that horrible sprite, but after that a lot of work was completely ignored by you!
I had to say this, but know I'll post some actual examples:

During the last month, in the Sonic sheet topic, I posted a complete Look Up animation. It is a very minor work, and it had some problems (which I solved in the second version posted in the following page), but they are still additional frames no one else did. But it doesn't matter if I like them or not, just like it doesn't matter if others hate it or not, you must tell me what you think. Is it good? Is it shit? What are its problems? What are its good points? How do you expect me to improve it if you don't say a thing?
But that animation is still something not very important. However, in the same topic, OrdosAlpha posted a different palette. The frames were not altered, and everyone prefer the new palette over the old one. Sure, it is a bit to dark, but nothing that can't be corrected in a few minutes. So? Do you approve the changes? Do you like the new palette? Tell us, because we must know what palette to use for the following frames! It doesn't matter how much we like it, you have the final word.

Let's continue with the topics. In the badniks topic were posted at least different 15 badniks. Some of them are cool, other not much. Still, have you ever bothered to give us directions on the type of Badniks we must create? What badnik must be turned into a sprite? What badnik must be scrapped? Tell us!

The level design topic: test-object posted a mock-up of a possible beach zone. A bit too cartoony for me, but you have the final word, so... SO POST! What do you think of it? What parts are good? What parts seems out of place? How is the palette? How do you think test-object must continue if you don't say anything?

Both Andlabs, Mr. Mash and ZFG posted a music track for the game. Have you, since you are the leader and the decision is always yours, bored into even listening them? Are they good? Are they bad? An instrument is wrong? The last part must be changed? If you don't tell us nothing then don't be surprised no one does anything.


I said this once, and I'll say this again. Don't. Ignore. Us.
You turned this project into "Chimpo Makes A Sonic Game", using art that has nothing to do with classic Sonic just because you like it. This wasn't what we originally planned, but since hope is always the last thing that dies, we continued to help. You assumed a completely dictatorship role over the project, and stated we had to work over specific things.
We did.
We worked on those things.
Now tell us if those things will be used!
Now tell us what we have to do next!

But you haven't. Instead, you occasionally insulted other members (like when you called all the work of the Sonic 4 forum, work you never saw since most of it was never reposted here, shit, for absolutely no reason. Remember what I said in the beginning, that every word you say has an impact? Then why anyone who worked on that forum, me included, should help you and this project if you think our work is shit), made various post were you accused us of the lack of work, posted a pair of frames and then pretended us must do all the work.

The Pulse said:

View PostThe Pulse, on Mar 28 2009, 04:20 AM, said:

It's almost poetic, it is... When many come together with no leader and all are equal, each will bicker for their own image to be made. Yet when one is in power and calls the shots, the followers may begin to resent their lack of control, or become dependent on their leaders hand. It is an ironic twist of fate, man will want all when given some, want instructions when given guidance, and want freedom when given a spanking.



Translation: People are never just content with things anymore.

To bad that Chimpo gave us directions for a week, then we were leaved to ourself, of course without a clear idea of what to do next. The perfect example is the first Zone. Each one of us has a different 1st zone in mind. Of course, if this happens there are no hopes we will ever reach a conclusion.

Of course, it may happen that a leader has a bad period, that's why multiple leaders are chosen. But, guess what, Veemon, the other "leader" (how could someone who did absolutely nothing for the project be granted leader status is beyond my thinking) was last seen the 10th March 2009 - 11:13 AM. She leaved the forum? She has troubles with her life? Okay, fine, she has her own problems.
But you are here every day! And it takes a second to comment something!
See, the mere fact that you still haven't said anything on what is happening today clearly shows that you don't care anymore of this project.

And if you don't care, why we should?



But now it is too late. Maybe I should have posted this sooner, but part of me knew this would have been ignored.
The project is not dead yet, but soon it will be.
Still, call me a dreamer, I still think this project can be saved. Because I have faith in the members of this forum and on their skills. But if I'm really the only one, then probably nothing can be done.

#45 User is offline test-object 

Posted 01 May 2009 - 02:13 PM

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STHX. I love you.
I tried to revive this a project a few days before by posting in almost every topic. The ones where I'm not really at home at (music dep.), I tried to think up something just to keep that part alive. Result, a whopping 1 reply. Thank you, Phos.

Chimpo. You're a good leader. Believe me, you are. You fixed the incoherent mess that was the old project and from it's ashes you made a nicely ordered databank that is open for debate. However, cleaning means maintaining. That's where it went wrong. I understand you're a busy man, but if you are, why don't you give on the torch to someone else with more spare time?

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