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#61 User is offline Ultima 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:07 AM

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View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

Still, I was thinking that once we had the finalized C# engine, it wouldn't take too much to convert it to a multi-playform engine. All conversion requires is finding the language's equivalencies, and then time.


Well, if you're using XNA, you'll need to implement all the underlying code for the stuff you use yourself as well. Examples being use of XNA's Vector2 class, or Quaternions - you'd need to implement those yourself. An example that shows my point more clearly is implementation of the rendering pipeline, or your own version of content management. There's a lot more to it than finding equivalences. Also, if you plan to convert it to another language eventually anyway, would it not be more sensible to implement it in your own language in the first place?

Also, you mention that no matter how good the engine you'll run into a limitation somewhere somehow with regards to E02... while this is perfectly true and valid, you're kind of trumping your point by suggesting the use of XNA rather than coding your own engine from the ground up because XNA and C# are heavily limited in terms of game development and engine control. When developing with XNA, You're essentially developing on top of a set of pre-established routines for stuff like rendering and content management, which limits your engine design considerably. C# kills most possibility of good memory management practices; again a fundamental part of game engine design - generally I'd say that XNA/C# is simply a bad idea unless you're developing for Xbox Live community games, and even then I argue to this day that they should've used a real language rather than a crippled one. I think XNA/C# is more designed for hobbyist kids to provide an easy platform for game development than it is for catering for serious development - in this regard I'd say it's not a huge amount better than using something like Game Maker.

Again I'll reiterate that this is all with the exception of development for Xbox Live Arcade/Xbox Live Community Games. Also, developing in C#/XNA with any intention of porting to other platforms in future (especially if you're considering converting to another language to do so, after having made the game in C#/XNA) is... well, a waste of time :P

... just my 2 pence.

#62 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:19 AM

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View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

By the way, Jayextee, thanks so much for sticking out for me while I wasn't here to defend myself.

At the risk of starting up another argument with jayextee, he wasn't "sticking out for you" as much as he was butthurt that I "ignored" him. Don't make the mistake of using inappropriate defenses

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

Jeez, calm down Stealth. I did take a short look at E02, but no matter how good the engine I'd still be worried about running into a limitation somewhere somehow. I wasn't necessarily saying that there was any problem, and I meant to say that if I were starting a project I wouldn't want to use someone's elses engine just because I prefer to create things on my own. I didn't mean to imply that you had no skill or something. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Strictly in the sense of being thorough, I question whether or not you used the most recent public demo, or just the very brief and very un-telling concept package at the top of the thread. You certainly didn't seem to have realized that I already pretty much talked them OUT of using E02 in the thread I started when the forum when no significant or even cooperative decisions were being made anywhere on the forum. An entirely custom engine was one of the options I listed, I don't really think it was all that necessary to make such a big deal out of how badly you wanted to avoid E02 in specific.

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

Still, in any case I think you overreacted. I never expected anyone to really take me seriously anyway until I had something to show for it. I actually expected someone to be developing it with E02 while I was working on it so in case I couldn't match E02 or something happened to where I couldn't work on the engine that the project would still continue.

I disagree; I think my reaction was entirely appropriate. Felt like you came in out of nowhere just to smack me in the face, and on top, noone even thought to take a SECOND to say anything in the least about it. It might have been best if you were clear on that other point, if that's actually how you felt. Though, I question THAT because you tried your hardest to express how dumb of an idea you thought it was

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

I know that developing in languages like C will end up with a far cleaner and faster engine, but it could also take much longer to make. C# may be a 'lazy' language, but it speeds up and simplifies development so much I'd use C# over C any day. Still, I was thinking that once we had the finalized C# engine, it wouldn't take too much to convert it to a multi-playform engine. All conversion requires is finding the language's equivalencies, and then time.

Not by my understanding. C# is a total mess.. Straight C would be much quicker to develop with, and yes, you most likely would end up with something cleaner and faster. You might as well be using E02 in the first place.. it's only just as immobile, and alot of the hard work is already done for you. Once you learn to understand it, as you would with any language, it's not any less straight-forward. - That's not a pitch, just a comparison; you see what I mean. And the porting process would be much quicker if the program were originally designed in standard C, furthermore if the engine structure was designed with portability in mind in the first place. I don't imagine that migrating from C# is all that much better than having to start over again. Given you already have your concepts, but, well, that's pretty much what you started with

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

For palette related stuff, yes I comepletely agree that even though we have the capability to use as many colors as we want I think limiting them is the best way to go, and I wouldn't want anything but the old dithering technique used for the textures. As for the palette rotations, I have an idea on how to do this without eating up the CPU/GPU, but yeah dynamic Hueing does take up far too much memory to be used reasonably. The choice of texture format and amount of colors isn't my decision to make.

I'm put off by your use of the word "texture". I don't know what you mean by saying that rather than sprite, or graphic file, depending on the context. I'm happy to see that we agree on the palette issue, though

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

For textures and music, moduled music and .tga might be more efficient and suit our needs, it would also be more difficult to create and modify than using .OGGs and .PNGs. I personally would prefer moduled music and TGAs though, I knew that they worked a lot better, I just thought that the team might not of had the proper software to develop them. I especially would love it if the music was done with Genesis-esque instruments, but again it really isn't my choice to make.

Another thing we can agree on, but some of your wording troubles me; particularly the part about "not having the proper software to develop them". Some people may not have modplug or something, but that's easy to get, and I don't currently know of any graphic program that DOESN'T support tga

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

If this project uses E02, I really don't have a problem with it, it seemed like no one around here really knew how to use it. Since the project seemed to gather some great talent but lacked a programmer, I was worried that if they didn't get one that it might have folded, so I volunteered. I did not volunteer for the project because I thought it was 'cool', I volunteered because I thought it's members were and deserved a programmer to get this project on the move. In any case, even though Stealth should use a little more tact, he is right to question my (and C#'s) abilities. Again this is why I want to prove myself before you declare me the project's programmer.

Similarly, I have no problem if they don't. Noone around here really knows how to use -anything-, though. Also, I don't believe you've used the term "tact" appropriately, either. I certainly meant to offend you, I wouldn't have spoken that way otherwise. It is, in fact, you, who should have used more tact if you actually meant absolutely no offense to me. I'm never anything less than straightforward about things like that. And I also firmly believe that you should have proven yourself before you spoke up in the first place, especially considering the boldness of your claims. I could claim alot of things, but I've never claimed anything that I hadn't already shown. I'd prefer everyone else to do the same, but that's generally seems to be too much to ask of anyone. It's not the aspiration, it's the baseless claims

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

Still, I'm glad that there's another engine around. It'll make me try to do everything possible to outdo it (before you get angry Stealth, I'm saying try to, not necessarily declaring I will), and in the end if I finish the engine it'll probably end up better than if my engine was the only one.

I wouldn't expect you not to try. However, "outdo" is pretty much only a subjective term at this point, considering the difference between E02 and what you'd want to do solely for this project, and the fact that all "Sonic" aspects of the Sonic engine built with it are nearly as technically accurate as possible, so you're really aiming for something more direct in core structure, potentially with other features not inherently necessary to a Sonic the Hedgehog game

Have at it

#63 User is offline Jayextee 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:30 AM

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View PostStealth, on Jan 9 2009, 02:19 PM, said:

At the risk of starting up another argument with jayextee, he wasn't "sticking out for you" as much as he was butthurt that I "ignored" P:SR until now.


Fixed. Unnecessary.

#64 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:41 AM

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View PostJayextee, on Jan 9 2009, 06:30 AM, said:

View PostStealth, on Jan 9 2009, 02:19 PM, said:

At the risk of starting up another argument with jayextee, he wasn't "sticking out for you" as much as he was butthurt that I "ignored" P:SR until now.


Fixed. Unnecessary.

Touche', salesman...

#65 User is offline Dark Phantron 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:59 AM

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Quote

At the risk of starting up another argument with jayextee, he wasn't "sticking out for you" as much as he was butthurt that I "ignored" him. Don't make the mistake of using inappropriate defenses

Perhaps I should've phrased it better, but in anycase a 'thank you' couldn't possibly hurt anything.

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I disagree; I think my reaction was entirely appropriate. Felt like you came in out of nowhere just to smack me in the face, and on top, noone even thought to take a SECOND to say anything in the least about it. It might have been best if you were clear on that other point, if that's actually how you felt. Though, I question THAT because you tried your hardest to express how dumb of an idea you thought it was

I apologize for that, I probably did go a bit too far with E02.

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Not by my understanding. C# is a total mess.. Straight C would be much quicker to develop with, and yes, you most likely would end up with something cleaner and faster. You might as well be using E02 in the first place.. it's only just as immobile, and alot of the hard work is already done for you. Once you learn to understand it, as you would with any language, it's not any less straight-forward. - That's not a pitch, just a comparison; you see what I mean. And the porting process would be much quicker if the program were originally designed in standard C, furthermore if the engine structure was designed with portability in mind in the first place. I don't imagine that migrating from C# is all that much better than having to start over again. Given you already have your concepts, but, well, that's pretty much what you started with

I'm not sure where you getting the whole C# is a total mess thing, but whatever. That's my programming language, that's what I'll be using. Any constructive criticisms of my code and any ways to make it more optimized are more than welcome, though.

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I'm put off by your use of the word "texture". I don't know what you mean by saying that rather than sprite, or graphic file, depending on the context. I'm happy to see that we agree on the palette issue, though

I meant graphic file. The posts I've been making have been so large that certain words and such aren't exactly as I intended.

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Another thing we can agree on, but some of your wording troubles me; particularly the part about "not having the proper software to develop them". Some people may not have modplug or something, but that's easy to get, and I don't currently know of any graphic program that DOESN'T support tga

Again, my posts a large and take a while to make, so my wording might seem to suggest things I didn't inted. I'd think that they could use modular music and .TGA, but I'm trying not to assume anything.

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Similarly, I have no problem if they don't. Noone around here really knows how to use -anything-, though.

Uh, I think it might be smart to rephrase that. You're practically insulting everyone in this entire forum.

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Also, I don't believe you've used the term "tact" appropriately, either. I certainly meant to offend you, I wouldn't have spoken that way otherwise. It is, in fact, you, who should have used more tact if you actually meant absolutely no offense to me. I'm never anything less than straightforward about things like that. And I also firmly believe that you should have proven yourself before you spoke up in the first place, especially considering the boldness of your claims. I could claim alot of things, but I've never claimed anything that I hadn't already shown. I'd prefer everyone else to do the same, but that's generally seems to be too much to ask of anyone. It's not the aspiration, it's the baseless claims

For the last time, I think I've pretty much said over and over again that my claims are baseless. When I decided I would try to help out, I wanted to figure out as quickly as possible if the project had a need for me. I have no public works to show, and I didn't want to spend time on the project until I was sure they needed a programmer. I haven't started yet, so if the team decides that they want to program this in C or use E02 instead of using C#, there isn't any problem.

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I wouldn't expect you not to try. However, "outdo" is pretty much only a subjective term at this point, considering the difference between E02 and what you'd want to do solely for this project, and the fact that all "Sonic" aspects of the Sonic engine built with it are nearly as technically accurate as possible, so you're really aiming for something more direct in core structure, potentially with other features not inherently necessary to a Sonic the Hedgehog game

Well, I meant outdo as in if there are any features that E02 didn't have that the project needs, then it would be added. Again, these are large posts, and even though I might be somewhat rude from time to time it isn't intentional, and I can't spend the time to triple check everything to make it completely political correct so to speak.

Plus half the time when I'm typing them I don't mean them to be as literal as they come out. I don't really hold any strong convictions on most anything in project, as most of it isn't my decision to make. Don't take my wording so literally.

One question I have though, why are you attacking me? Even though I did appear from the blue with baseless claims, you've attacked the only programmer (me) interested in helping out, and you're barely involved with this project. This might have been my fault for unintentionally insulting you, but again, it wasn't intentional.

Now I've tried to go out of my way to be nice, respectful, honest and have even tried to apologize twice now. This has been a simple misunderstanding, is it at all possible that we can get past this Stealth?
This post has been edited by Dark Phantron: 09 January 2009 - 10:05 AM

#66 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:22 AM

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View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

Quote

Similarly, I have no problem if they don't. Noone around here really knows how to use -anything-, though.

Uh, I think it might be smart to rephrase that. You're practically insulting everyone in this entire forum.

Context - Noone around here with any significant interest in this project knows how to use anything that would be of use in developing a decent engine for this game to use. Better?

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

For the last time, I think I've pretty much said over and over again that my claims are baseless. When I decided I would try to help out, I wanted to figure out as quickly as possible if the project had a need for me. I have no public works to show, and I didn't want to spend time on the project until I was sure they needed a programmer. I haven't started yet, so if the team decides that they want to program this in C or use E02 instead of using C#, there isn't any problem.

My point was that I don't make a large presentation for something that doesn't even exist. I never understand why anyone else actually does; it's essentially meaningless, and it can cause offense. I imagine it'd be in your best interest not to reveal too many failed intentions anyway, and your presentation would have been much more powerful had it including a functional build of any real quality. As an example, but to a lesser degree, they had no idea I was going to build a first-level prototype, and if they did, I doubt it would have generated even as much interest as it did after the release. It loses it's impact

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

Well, I meant outdo as in if there are any features that E02 didn't have that the project needs, then it would be added. Again, these are large posts, and even though I might be somewhat rude from time to time it isn't intentional, and I can't spend the time to triple check everything to make it completely political correct so to speak.

I've explained that I thought the entire thing was improper in the first place; that's my stance. It really wouldn't have been that difficult anyway.. you demonstrated that you clearly had no regard for any specifics about the project whatsoever; the only information you had was outdated information about the use of E02 that was posted in the thread you responded to. If you had any other real interest in the project, I would have guessed that you'd take a more thorough look at the forum before you declared your intentions

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

Plus half the time when I'm typing them I don't mean them to be as literal as they come out. I don't really hold any strong convictions on most anything in project, as most of it isn't my decision to make. Don't take my wording so literally.

Say what you mean, don't say what you don't mean. I also find this to be a project where the programmer actually has more room to care about the overall product, and I would've expected that anyone that took that position would. Given that certain I/O decisions haven't been made, and you "don't really hold any strong convictions", you don't even know half of what you're going to be programming

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

One question I have though, if you're E02 engine works so well and you're such a great programmer, why is it that you haven't helped out? Even though I did appear from the blue with baseless claims, you've attacked the only programmer (me) interested in helping out, and you're barely involved with this project. This might have been my fault for unintentionally insulting you, but again, it wasn't intentional.

Not that it's any of your business, but I DO have a life, with other projects and other responsibilities. Not that that has anything to do with how well E02 works (really, I don't see what difference that makes at this point when the more broad issue of me being "such a great programmer" comes into play, or what that in specific has to do with S:PR when it's not even the chosen platform), but I don't actually have the kind of time I'd need to properly dedicate myself to that position at the moment. That's asside from the fact that I HAVE made contributions, in the form of the demonstration, and the thread. Hell, I contributed just today.. what do you think that business at the end of the first post I made was about? I took the time to work shit out to some degree with jayextee just a bit ago, and I'm still bothering with you

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 06:59 AM, said:

Now I've tried to go out of my way to be nice, respectful, honest and have even tried to apologize twice now. This has been a simple misunderstanding, is it at all possible that we can get past this Stealth?

I wasn't aware that I wasn't being civil at this point

#67 User is offline nineko 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:52 AM

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By the way, I respect C# as much as I respect LOLCODE.

The day this project uses C# is the day this project completely loses credibility.

#68 User is offline Sik 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:18 AM

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View Postnineko, on Jan 9 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

By the way, I respect C# as much as I respect LOLCODE.

I actually respect LOLCODE more than C#. Seriously.

For GUIs? I may understand, as with GUIs these days you probably can be a lot sloppy. But for games? C'mon! Reminds me of GDNet, where most of the members are C# and Phyton fanboys and can't understand how programmers can work without them. The funny thing is that when asked, their arguments aren't exactly solid. It isn't uncommon to see how many of them shame C/C++ only because you have to compile the code. Yes, I'm being fucking serious :(

And about the modules vs. OGG dispute: the good point of modules is that effects can be easily applied to them. They can be looped properly, and their tempo can be changed if the player allows for it - which can be useful for the supersneakers speed up effect, though you'll probably end up using a different BGM for that.

#69 User is offline Dark Phantron 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:22 AM

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I wasn't aware that I wasn't being civil at this point

*sigh*

I'm done trying to appease you.

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I don't really hold any strong convictions on most anything in project
Given that certain I/O decisions haven't been made, and you "don't really hold any strong convictions", you don't even know half of what you're going to be programming

I meant I don't really hold any strong convictions as in that I'm willing program what the team needs, not what I think it does. Besides, I already know most of what I'm going to be programming, and that's Sonic's engine.

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My point was that I don't make a large presentation for something that doesn't even exist. I never understand why anyone else actually does; it's essentially meaningless, and it can cause offense. I imagine it'd be in your best interest not to reveal too many failed intentions anyway, and your presentation would have been much more powerful had it including a functional build of any real quality. As an example, but to a lesser degree, they had no idea I was going to build a first-level prototype, and if they did, I doubt it would have generated even as much interest as it did after the release. It loses it's impact

I could care less about impact. Unlike you, I'm not a rogue programmer. My intention was to outline what I'd be programming so that the team could tell me what they wanted and then incorporate it as I'm building the engine. Impact may generate interest, but interest really means nothing to me. What matters to me is that the engine is designed for the team so they actually can make progress. As long as the team has a project leader and an artist, I'm good to go. My willingness to program something is not based on how popular it is, but rather how good it is. I'm trying to do what's in the best interests of this team rather than what's in the best interest for me.

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you demonstrated that you clearly had no regard for any specifics about the project whatsoever; the only information you had was outdated information about the use of E02 that was posted in the thread you responded to. If you had any other real interest in the project, I would have guessed that you'd take a more thorough look at the forum before you declared your intentions

I don't have a fast internet connection, loading the pages takes a while. If I did I assure you I would have done a lot more research on the project and E02 as well.

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Not that it's any of your business, but I DO have a life, with other projects and other responsibilities.

And you just assume I don't!? I have a life with other projects and responsibilities as well, I just happen to have the free time to work on this on weekends. You have accused me of being rude, but so far you've shown yourself to be more rude, arrogant, and offensive than anyone I've seen on these forums, and one of the most I've seen on any forum for that matter.

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That's asside from the fact that I HAVE made contributions, in the form of the demonstration, and the thread. Hell, I contributed just today.. what do you think that business at the end of the first post I made was about? I took the time to work shit out to some degree with jayextee just a bit ago, and I'm still bothering with you

This is how you make contributions!? Attacking anyone who dared to defy the all-powerful programmer of E02? Insulting anyone who wants to help, and everyone who has contributed to this project so far? I have absolutely no respect for your opinion anymore. You seem to have no concept of the word team, you seem to just criticize and tear apart anything that isn't yours and tell everyone what they can and cannot do. I don't care how good you are, if this is the way you 'contribute' to a project I feel sorry for any project that is unfortunate enough to have you.

I have had enough of you.

I had offered my programming skills to help Jayextee and his team complete this project, not to please you or to make a cool engine that I could throw in everyone's face.

I have tried my best to correct any misunderstanding, tried to be as civil as I could and continually apologized for certain errors in my posts, and you still have nothing better to do than insult me.

I have tried to explain that my claims are exactly what they are: claims. I never said that it was anything but. I actually posted here to learn what the team wanted, so that I could be sure that any engine I make supports them. If that means that game performance isn't as high as E02, so be it.

I have tried to explain that I would let the other members involved in the project know exactly what I was doing so that they could offer corrections, suggestions and requests while I developed the engine so that this project will be 100% what Jayextee and the others want, not what you or I want.

If this project will ever be completed it will need to be based on the team's needs, not yours or mine.

This will be my last post in this thread until I have something to show the team, so that the team can give their input to make this project the best that it can be.

EDIT: And by the way, has anyone here actually used C#? Can anyone who has actually programmed with C# and one of these other magical languages I'm hearing about tell me why C# is the considered so terrible? I've never had any problems with it. Those that I know of who work with C# have never said "You should use a different language to program with".
This post has been edited by Dark Phantron: 09 January 2009 - 11:26 AM

#70 User is offline nineko 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:28 AM

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View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 05:22 PM, said:

And by the way, has anyone here actually used C#?
Yes. I'm not talking out of my ass here. I know C# quite well and I wrote some programs with it. When I say that it sucks I'm not going by common belief, I'm actually comparing it to superior languages like C (which I also know and use). Just like I am allowed to say that Java sucks too, because I (sadly) had the chance to use Java as well. All these new languages are just a way to reduce the performances of your programs by adding layers and layers of overhead for NOTHING.

#71 User is offline GerbilSoft 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:30 AM

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View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

EDIT: And by the way, has anyone here actually used C#? Can anyone who has actually programmed with C# and one of these other magical languages I'm hearing about tell me why C# is the considered so terrible? I've never had any problems with it. Those that I know of who work with C# have never said "You should use a different language to program with".

It isn't the language that's terrible. It's the associated runtime that's the main issue. .NET overall is bloated and slow, and isn't very portable to other platforms. Sure there's Mono, but that only works if you use the specific "cross-platform" subset of .NET. And DirectX isn't exactly covered there. (OpenGL might be, not sure.)

C does have its issues (manual memory management), but there are plenty of tools that can help to solve those issues, including Valgrind.
This post has been edited by GerbilSoft: 09 January 2009 - 11:31 AM

#72 User is offline STHX 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:31 AM

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I noticed that some important points emerged today. Palette, engine, music files, platform/programming language.
These points are more important than some may think. All the work in this project depends on what limitations the contributors have when, uh, contributing.
I originally believed that the music format was going to use OGG, but if it actually ends up using modules, well, the range of possibilities increase (considering how many effects are possible with them).
And if the sprites do not need to strictly follow the 16 color palette limit, it is best if we know this now, so we can start to use more colors (but that doesn't mean there isn't a limit. Even if we can use more than 16 colors, we still need a limit, or we will go overboard).

#73 User is offline Tweaker 

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Okay, this back and forth shit is fucking ridiculous. Here's my ultimatum:

To both sides—present a proof-of-concept. Provide a proof-of-concept of your version of the engine, and then we can see what people prefer, what is most feasible, and what will ultimately work best for this project. Both sides have established their position as much as it's going to be established, so now it's about action. Phantron should take his idea of an engine and prep it with project materials. Stealth, or anyone else interested in using E02 should do the same. Once you're both done, present what you have and let the project leaders and community decide which they would rather prefer. If it ends up being a less optimized engine, if it ends up using retarded formats, and if it ends up doing all these things that aren't the most technically sound choices that could be made? That's their decision.

I think we've definitely had enough theory here. If we're going to use E02, we need an E02 programmer. If we're going to use this engine, then we presumably have a programmer. People are only going to work with what they choose to work with, best choice or not. Let's get shit settled.

#74 User is offline Dark Phantron 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:47 AM

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View PostTweaker, on Jan 9 2009, 11:33 AM, said:

Okay, this back and forth shit is fucking ridiculous. Here's my ultimatum:

To both sides—present a proof-of-concept. Provide a proof-of-concept of your version of the engine, and then we can see what people prefer, what is most feasible, and what will ultimately work best for this project. Both sides have established their position as much as it's going to be established, so now it's about action. Phantron should take his idea of an engine and prep it with project materials. Stealth, or anyone else interested in using E02 should do the same. Once you're both done, present what you have and let the project leaders and community decide which they would rather prefer. If it ends up being a less optimized engine, if it ends up using retarded formats, and if it ends up doing all these things that aren't the most technically sound choices that could be made? That's their decision.

I think we've definitely had enough theory here. If we're going to use E02, we need an E02 programmer. If we're going to use this engine, then we presumably have a programmer. People are only going to work with what they choose to work with, best choice or not. Let's get shit settled.

Finally. I agree completely. That would mean the team has multiple options (always a good thing) for the engine and will be able to choose whichever one works better. It's a win-win scenario for me, as it gives me some competition to work against and the team should get exactly what they want in the end, regardless of which engine they choose.

I know I said I wouldn't post here until I had something to show, but Tweaker's post really set things straight here (atleast for me). I'll do what I can with C#, and although it's 'bloated and slow', it should be more than capable of running a retro Sonic game at a good framerate.

#75 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 09 January 2009 - 12:05 PM

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View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

Quote

I wasn't aware that I wasn't being civil at this point

*sigh*

I'm done trying to appease you.

What?

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I meant I don't really hold any strong convictions as in that I'm willing program what the team needs, not what I think it does. Besides, I already know most of what I'm going to be programming, and that's Sonic's engine.

You may not need sound currently, but you certainly need graphics and input. You currently don't even seem to know much about how "Sonic's engine" works, given your question about the tiling method, and the way you completely trivialized all other aspects. That's also not to mention the comment "as long as Sega didn't do anything weird in their code somewhere". You're going to see that, because it was done WELL. Mr Yuji Naka is one of the few programmers I actually have active respect for. Furthermore, you haven't even expressed that you have any experience whatsoever with ANY form of assembly language, or the Genesis as a development platform.

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I could care less about impact. Unlike you, I'm not a rogue programmer. My intention was to outline what I'd be programming so that the team could tell me what they wanted and then incorporate it as I'm building the engine. Impact may generate interest, but interest really means nothing to me. What matters to me is that the engine is designed for the team so they actually can make progress. As long as the team has a project leader and an artist, I'm good to go. My willingness to program something is not based on how popular it is, but rather how good it is. I'm trying to do what's in the best interests of this team rather than what's in the best interest for me.

If they knew, it would be laid out already, but if it was, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered to spend the time it would take to load up a couple more threads and actually learn about the project. You also fail to realize that I'm talking about INSPIRATION, not popularity. If interest generates inspiration, then there is success. They can think I'm badass all they want and it won't otherwise do any good. Screw you for implying that I'm that petty

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I don't have a fast internet connection, loading the pages takes a while. If I did I assure you I would have done a lot more research on the project and E02 as well.

Boo-hoo. I had dial-up for the longest damned time, and even suffered through 14.4 while everybody else was already using broadband, and I STILL made time to actually research shit I was going to post to. The world didn't stop for me, it's not going to stop for you. Quit whining for pitty and suck it up

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

And you just assume I don't!? I have a life with other projects and responsibilities as well, I just happen to have the free time to work on this on weekends. You have accused me of being rude, but so far you've shown yourself to be more rude, arrogant, and offensive than anyone I've seen on these forums, and one of the most I've seen on any forum for that matter.

I never said anything about you, the implication you made was that I was just some sort of jerkass for not taking on this project that way, and I responded to that implication. I haven't said a damned thing about your life or responsibilities, you read that out of thin-air entirely of your own accord. Be offended by me, I'm happy. I don't have any problem being offensive when I find it appropriate, and I certainly don't think I ought to waste any more good humor on you. My middle-two responses were decent, and I stated nothing but relevant facts. If you can't properly rebut them and that makes you uncomfortable, that's your own problem, not mine.

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

Quote

That's asside from the fact that I HAVE made contributions, in the form of the demonstration, and the thread. Hell, I contributed just today.. what do you think that business at the end of the first post I made was about? I took the time to work shit out to some degree with jayextee just a bit ago, and I'm still bothering with you

This is how you make contributions!? Attacking anyone who dared to defy the all-powerful programmer of E02? Insulting anyone who wants to help, and everyone who has contributed to this project so far? I have absolutely no respect for your opinion anymore. You seem to have no concept of the word team, you seem to just criticize and tear apart anything that isn't yours and tell everyone what they can and cannot do. I don't care how good you are, if this is the way you 'contribute' to a project I feel sorry for any project that is unfortunate enough to have you.

My contributions were the kick-off I tried to start with the E02 demonstration, and the long and long-thought thread I posted to kick the project in the ass when it was stagnating, which happened to lead to the introduction of the current new project leaders, and at least got SOME proper discussion to happen for a little while. That is what I already SAID to you. Also, yes, I believe that combating your ignorance and challenging you to actually prove useful is contributive toward this project. You feel sorry that there's someone with any SENSE getting involved with this project? I'd feel sorry for YOU, if I liked you

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I have had enough of you.

The feeling is mutual. We don't agree on many things, but when we do, they're doozies

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I had offered my programming skills to help Jayextee and his team complete this project, not to please you or to make a cool engine that I could throw in everyone's face.

I made a "cool engine that I could throw in everyone's face" long before S:PR, because I felt like challenging myself to do so and creating something generally useful as a result. E02's involvement in this project at all was strictly a choice of the original project leaders, not mine

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I have tried my best to correct any misunderstanding, tried to be as civil as I could and continually apologized for certain errors in my posts, and you still have nothing better to do than insult me.

They were nothing that I didn't accept, and I don't see how this post is very civil. I don't recall actually getting hostile with you after my initial post. If I wanted to insult you, I'd say that you were the spawn of your mother having wild raunchy sex with her brother, because she's just that much of a filthy whore. I haven't said anything that wasn't just a simple fact. If the facts are insulting to you, maybe you should work on changing them.

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I have tried to explain that my claims are exactly what they are: claims. I never said that it was anything but. I actually posted here to learn what the team wanted, so that I could be sure that any engine I make supports them. If that means that game performance isn't as high as E02, so be it.

I never ignored anything that you had properly "explained". Your claims in themselves were done with early-on in this "discussion", and any more mention of any relation was more involved in discussion of my personal taste in how those things are treated. If that upsets you this much, again, it's your problem.

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I have tried to explain that I would let the other members involved in the project know exactly what I was doing so that they could offer corrections, suggestions and requests while I developed the engine so that this project will be 100% what Jayextee and the others want, not what you or I want.

If this project will ever be completed it will need to be based on the team's needs, not yours or mine.

Your description wasn't so exact that they could actually give that kind of feedback. What you want should be relevant-enough if you were to become the programmer, same as me. What either of us want is just as relevant at this point anyway, considering the openness of this being a "community project". That, however, doesn't mean they control how I develop E02, as it was developed entirely independently of this project, nor does it mean that I have absolute expectations for them to use E02 just because I'm here and I built it. That implication, at this point, should be futile, as I've already discussed how I feel about that, which is nearly the exact opposite of how you want to spin it.

View PostDark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

This will be my last post in this thread until I have something to show the team, so that the team can give their input to make this project the best that it can be.

"Team" "Team" "Team". Buzzwords.. sure it's about the team, or rather, it's about the best interest of the project, but it all sounds the same when you're talking out your ass. Using names like "team", "community", or whatever when you're trying to pull your ass out of the fire only makes it worse, not better.
This post has been edited by Stealth: 09 January 2009 - 12:37 PM

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