[Bit-Blade]

Greetings. I'm a pixel artist/rom hacker, and I've been a sega and sonic fan ever since Sonic 2, when I first got my genesis, sonic 2, and sonic 1. Ahh, good times. Anyway, back to the point.

I was inspired by a music hack Tweaker made that replaces many of the songs in Sonic 3 with songs from Sonic 3D Blast (I still find it hard to beleive people could think so badly of this little gem, although maybe if you've played that awful Flicky master system game it could be understandable). Anyway, I've always thought that the shields in Sonic 3 have had an underpowered and downplayed role. I'd have a blast making levels with the shields abilities in mind.

Basically, I would like someone to help me with an ASM hack I have in mind. The various shields in Sonic 3 have a very underplayed role in the game play, and I think they could be put to better use if they were modified. Ideally, I'd like to make it so that the different shields aren't necesarilly displayed graphically. The user would be able to cycle through each of the shields with, say, the A button, or pressing left right A (or something). The shields would not be nearly as delicate as before, retaining their potency despite such things as water and taking damage. The abilities they impart have way too much potential to make awesome levels with them in mind. To counter this usability I would propose to make the shields rely on rings whenever their power is tapped, so to speak (which might be impossible for the passive abilities of the shields, such as immunity to fire based weaponry, the ability to breathe underwater, and the ability to attract rings). Active abilities like the Fire Ball, the Spark Jump, and the Bounce Jump would be easier to handle. Perhaps if, in shield mode, rings are subtracted slowly (not as quickly as in Super Sonic form). Any input anyone has to offer would be appreciated, especially help if anyone is willing to hold my hand, so to speak. This is such an awesome idea I really hope someone could get just as enthusiatic about it as I am. There's nothing better than working on projects with people that are just as excited as you are. You could say it's my ideal of romhacking in general.

Finally, as a general disclaimer, this is not any kind of attempt to get someone to do my dirty work for me. I have every intention of following through with these ambitions, although as a complete and total novice to Genesis and Sonic hacking I could certainly use some guidance. It is enough to point me in the right direction.

[Aurochs]

If you can actually find a use for the bounce jump, I'll definetly help.

You have a good concept here, but it'll take a lot of work to get it balanced enough to be usable. For example, keeping them around after taking damage would be a big no-no, because it makes them way too powerful. Besides that, we still don't have a good disassembly of Sonic 3 & Knuckles to base it on.

[Bit-Blade]

But that is where the balance kicks in. Let's just say the shields drain 2 rings every second when being used passively, and that a use of their active abilities would cost 10 rings. That is a sufficient counter measure, I think, especially if you take into account sudden ring loss by taking damage. With careful level design and a cautious as well as intentionally small distribution of rings would finish the balance, although finding that balance between scarcity and abundance might be a bit time consuming.

As for bounce jump, this might be a stretch, but how about using the downward bounce to destroy certain obstacles blocking a downward path?

As for the difficulty in hacking S3&K, I am primarilly interested in Sonic 3, although if the shields could be ported to the much more extensively documented and hacked Sonic 2. Likely, porting would be an impossible option if my intuition is correct. *shrugs* Still, if the idea is viable in any form that would be a blessing.

[Aurochs]

Bit-Blade, on Mar 22 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

Likely, porting would be an impossible option if my intuition is correct.

Not at all. It would be relatively easy, actually; you only need to add a few objects and tweak Sonic's behaviour slightly.

[Bit-Blade]

Haha, really? I'm too used to hacking the strict and unbending NES. It's limitations are quite inflexible.

I'm going to need to do some homework, so to speak. Although I know there are limitations to genesis graphics, I'm not familiar with them, and I should be if I'm going to be designing level art and such for them.

As far as my abilities are concerned, here's some work I've done in the past. Though at a glance my abilities may seem quite skilled, I am quite limited by the fact that my real artistic abilities are somewhat stunted. Those lacks are apparent in my inability to skillfully animate sprites consistently, though I seem to do fairly well with most other things. These graphics were intended for a Castlevania game, in case you're wondering.

[FinalBeyond]

It might be useful to try and put the shields into Sonic 2 somehow, and then make these changes. Then you have a double whammy of a hack. It has the altered levels and stuff, and the shields from Sonic 3.

[Aurochs]

Shit man, you did that on an NES? I have no doubt that you'll be able to make some amazing shit with the Genesis VDP.

[Tweaker]

Aurochs, on Mar 22 2006, 11:39 AM, said:

Shit man, you did that on an NES? I have no doubt that you'll be able to make some amazing shit with the Genesis VDP.

That's VERY impossible to do on a NES. I think that's something he whipped up and modified for his hack, from a castlevania game. In either case, it looks pretty feckin' fantastic.

[Bit-Blade]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to imply those graphics were NES. Those were actually done in photoshop. I'm pretty sure there are more colors there than even the SNES could handle in single objects. It was a pretty fun project while it lasted but I eventually ran out of inspiration of what to include in that level set.

[Bit-Blade]

Well, I've been cramming away at several 68k ASM guides. Thinking mathematically on a bit level has got to be one of the strangest things I've ever done. Right now I'm just going over uses of simple functions, I had to learn what AND/OR/XOR was. Incidently, I'm surprised at how ridiculously simple binary turned out to be. With binary being so simple, it amazes me that machine code can function at all.

I'll keep at it for the time being and see where it takes me. Likely when I need a helping hand on what to do next this will be one of the first places I ask.

[Tweaker]

Glad to see those guides work for you. I wasn't sure of your ability at the time of the conversation, but now I'm confident you can achieve what you're aiming to.

Hell, I can even see you as a Tech Member one day.

[Quickman]

Bit-Blade, on Mar 28 2006, 01:26 PM, said:

With binary being so simple, it amazes me that machine code can function at all.

Simplicity doesn't imply limit. Quite simple components can complicate themselves. Life is at its root very simple - just a lump of DNA wrapped in phospholipid bilayer.

[Bit-Blade]

A good idea just smacked me in the face, so I am quickly writing it down before I have to scramble to leave for work. I just planned out how the shield hack is going to roll out, but it's got more complex.

All of the same general desired theory applies, except that now I am going to need to make 3 special types of item tv box thingies. They would need to be special because they would function under a conditional statement. If sonic already has the shield, a 10 ring box is all it should appear instead of the shield. If sonic doesn't have the shield, then it will appear because he doesn't. I am unsure of the practibility of this idea, however, because I do not know how the genesis would load that sprite entity. Would such item boxes need to be constantly hooked into ram or would sonic aquiring a shield be an actual trigger? Is it really practical for several sprite entities such as that to funtion this way? I am also tinkering with the idea of having these 3 shield boxes not tell you which shield you will get (though if you are being awarded a shield with when you only have one kind left, that would defeat the purpose of being anonymous), as well as creating/editing a 4th shield whose adverse effects wouldn't necesarilly be made up for with its minimal good effects. This, coupled with anomynous shield aquisition, might balance things a bit more.

I am still unsure of the role Super Sonic should play in all this. At this present time I am learning how to manipulate the VDP through ASM. I didn't expect that strange... indirect-like method it uses ($813C for VDP register 1 doing its thing with a random hex number). Anyway, I'm already almost late, so I'll just skidaddle.

This post has been edited by Bit-Blade: 30 March 2006 - 08:32 AM

[Qjimbo]

Ideas ideas....

The thing is ASM is very very hard. You won't be able to dive straight in to coding them because you won't have any idea of how the code will be structured if you've never done ASM before.

I myself get a lot of ideas on how to modify a sonic game, but the problem is that they turn out to be so damn hard to implament that I give up.

If you have patience and do some boring simple asm first, and get into it, there's no doubt in my mind you will achieve this. However if you can't shift the idea of making this amazing thing until you are capable of it, you will fail.

Good luck

[Tweaker]

QJimbo, on Mar 30 2006, 08:40 AM, said:

Ideas ideas....

The thing is ASM is very very hard. You won't be able to dive straight in to coding them because you won't have any idea of how the code will be structured if you've never done ASM before.

Shut it. ASM isn't hard -- understanding the engine and hardware is.

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I myself get a lot of ideas on how to modify a sonic game, but the problem is that they turn out to be so damn hard to implament that I give up.

Prolly the wrong approach you're taking.

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If you have patience and do some boring simple asm first, and get into it, there's no doubt in my mind you will achieve this. However if you can't shift the idea of making this amazing thing until you are capable of it, you will fail.

No, maybe YOU would. You don't represent everybody, sorry to say, and I wouldn't discourage others based on your experience either.