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The Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Megathread Latest Update: Main Site Updated (CSZ)

#3616 User is offline Polygon Jim 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:05 AM

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QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 17 2010, 02:04 AM)
Exactly how big do you suppose a game could get in terms of level size when you're stuck with a Wii's harddrive, with those graphics? Not that I'm saying Sonic 4 is all that it can be, I'm just saying, realistically. How many megabytes are we talking, here?

That the game is also a WiiWare title, is really the only thing dragging it down as far as that statement goes. I thought we settled that point ages ago—that the Wii's space limit was probably a factor in the whole "episodic" thing?



New Super Mario Brothers Wii could nearly fit as a WiiWare game. Your point is invalid.



Edit: Correction! The layout files are less than 10mb, and it has longer levels, and about 10 times as many.
This post has been edited by Polygon Jim: 17 July 2010 - 01:07 AM

#3617 User is offline Solaris Paradox 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:07 AM

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QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Jul 17 2010, 02:05 AM)
QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 17 2010, 02:04 AM)
Exactly how big do you suppose a game could get in terms of level size when you're stuck with a Wii's harddrive, with those graphics? Not that I'm saying Sonic 4 is all that it can be, I'm just saying, realistically. How many megabytes are we talking, here?

That the game is also a WiiWare title, is really the only thing dragging it down as far as that statement goes. I thought we settled that point ages ago—that the Wii's space limit was probably a factor in the whole "episodic" thing?


New Super Mario Brothers Wii could nearly fit as a WiiWare game. Your point is invalid.


Ahem. I saaaaaay-ed, "WITH THOSE <---*referencing Chimpo's videos there, Jim, pay attention please* GRAPHICS."

#3618 User is offline Polygon Jim 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:08 AM

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QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 17 2010, 02:07 AM)
QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Jul 17 2010, 02:05 AM)
QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 17 2010, 02:04 AM)
Exactly how big do you suppose a game could get in terms of level size when you're stuck with a Wii's harddrive, with those graphics? Not that I'm saying Sonic 4 is all that it can be, I'm just saying, realistically. How many megabytes are we talking, here?

That the game is also a WiiWare title, is really the only thing dragging it down as far as that statement goes. I thought we settled that point ages ago—that the Wii's space limit was probably a factor in the whole "episodic" thing?


New Super Mario Brothers Wii could nearly fit as a WiiWare game. Your point is invalid.


Ahem. I saaaaaay-ed, "WITH THOSE <---*referencing Chimpo's videos there, Jim, pay attention please* GRAPHICS."




Uh, nothing changes. The levels can be the same length. JettRocket has more levels than Sonic 4.
This post has been edited by Polygon Jim: 17 July 2010 - 01:09 AM

#3619 User is offline Solaris Paradox 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:11 AM

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QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Jul 17 2010, 02:08 AM)
Uh, nothing changes. The levels can be the same length.


>_> Okay, honestly not following how that works, maybe I'm just not learned enough... um, how would a massive graphical update not alter file size?

#3620 User is offline Polygon Jim 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:13 AM

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QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 17 2010, 02:11 AM)
QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Jul 17 2010, 02:08 AM)
Uh, nothing changes. The levels can be the same length.


>_> Okay, honestly not following how that works, maybe I'm just not learned enough... um, how would a massive graphical update not alter file size?



Because other company's actually understand how basic concepts work, and know how to use compression.

#3621 User is offline Chimpo 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:14 AM

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QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 16 2010, 11:04 PM)
Exactly how big do you suppose a game could get in terms of level size when you're stuck with a Wii's harddrive, with those graphics? Not that I'm saying Sonic 4 is all that it can be, I'm just saying, realistically. How many megabytes are we talking, here?


First it was that it's a downloadable game. Then that it has to accommodate the Wii, and now you're on about file size regarding level sizes which Jim goes on to disprove. When are you going to draw the line here? This is utterly ridiculous. Every time we show something that goes against someone's assumptions, someone else decides to pull more out of their ass.

QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 16 2010, 11:04 PM)
That the game is also a WiiWare title, is really the only thing dragging it down as far as that statement goes. I thought we settled that point ages ago—that the Wii's space limit was probably a factor in the whole "episodic" thing?


No it isn't. It's absolute horse shit they're selling you. They're splitting it up because they know you'll buy this shit in chunks.

#3622 User is offline Solaris Paradox 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:20 AM

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QUOTE (Chimpo @ Jul 17 2010, 02:14 AM)
First it was that it's a downloadable game. Then that it has to accommodate the Wii, and now you're on about file size regarding level sizes which Jim goes on to disprove. When are you going to draw the line here?


^ I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't catch the part where I said, "Hey, Jim, could you explain that to me? Maybe my understanding is actually wrong." Because, y'know, the alternative would be that you choice to ignore my virtuous quest for clarification and understanding in favor of the misperception that I'm being stubbornly wrong.

We did have a conversation about the Wii's hard-drive limitations in this (or was it the other) very thread some time ago, and the file-size issue was mentioned at the time. So sue me, I misunderstood.

Anyway, Jim... if it's not too much trouble, could you explain exactly how those "basic concepts" work? At least a Cliff's-notes version? For, y'know, my epic and virtuous quest for clarification and understanding. ^.^'

#3623 User is offline Polygon Jim 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:25 AM

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QUOTE (Solaris Paradox @ Jul 17 2010, 02:20 AM)
QUOTE (Chimpo @ Jul 17 2010, 02:14 AM)
First it was that it's a downloadable game. Then that it has to accommodate the Wii, and now you're on about file size regarding level sizes which Jim goes on to disprove. When are you going to draw the line here?


^ I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't catch the part where I said, "Hey, Jim, could you explain that to me? Maybe my understanding is actually wrong." Because, y'know, the alternative would be that you choice to ignore my virtuous quest for clarification and understanding in favor of the misperception that I'm being stubbornly wrong.

We did have a conversation about the Wii's hard-drive limitations in this (or was it the other) very thread some time ago, and the file-size issue was mentioned at the time. So sue me, I misunderstood.

Anyway, Jim... if it's not too much trouble, could you explain exactly how those "basic concepts" work? At least a Cliff's-notes version? For, y'know, my epic and virtuous quest for clarification and understanding. ^.^'




Okay, say a file has a whole longass string of FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF's or 11111111111111111111111's or any shit like that. It can be compressed. You save a ton of filespace, with the result of a slightly longer load time.

You can also optimize how you store level data. As an example, EVERY single level and all of the level art combined in NSMBW which is a much longer game is LESS than 9mb. This also ties into optimizing your level art.


S4 has around 80 tiles for every level when it could have done it like NSMB and have a block based system and it would look identical. Instead they waste over 100mb on level art. It also has no compression. Pretty much it did everything wrong.

#3624 User is offline Solaris Paradox 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:30 AM

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Aha. There, now, y'see, I didn't know Sonic 4 did that. That does sound pretty sloppy.

#3625 User is offline serpx 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 10:58 AM

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QUOTE (Chimpo @ Jul 17 2010, 01:14 AM)
No it isn't. It's absolute horse shit they're selling you. They're splitting it up because they know you'll buy this shit in chunks.


Not necessarily commented to you, I just wanted to talk on the topic of it being episodic vs. none -- I rather have chunks that may get progressively better and more enjoyable, than one giant shitty game.

#3626 User is offline Solaris Paradox 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:30 PM

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That... is one possible positive outlook, if a bit tinged in feces and toxic ire, yeah...

#3627 User is offline Deef 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:03 PM

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Quite negative if you ask me, albeit admittedly realistic.

Since when do we support devs releasing something in pieces just in case it's s***.

So even though the point is practical, it doesn't make sense to support this reason without admitting low confidence in the devs (or the devs admitting in themselves). And if that is the case I'd rather they address whatever is causing the low confidence than actually encourage this defensive style of production.
This post has been edited by Deef: 17 July 2010 - 01:04 PM

#3628 User is offline Glaber 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:14 PM

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I know this will never happen, but last night I had a dream about Sonic 4 and for some weird reason, you could play a Sally using placeholder sprites of Pulseman and herself.



#3629 User is offline Dude 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:30 PM

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QUOTE (Deef @ Jul 17 2010, 02:03 PM)
Quite negative if you ask me, albeit admittedly realistic.

Since when do we support devs releasing something in pieces just in case it's s***.

So even though the point is practical, it doesn't make sense to support this reason without admitting low confidence in the devs (or the devs admitting in themselves). And if that is the case I'd rather they address whatever is causing the low confidence than actually encourage this defensive style of production.


classic sega thinking: Our developers can't be doing anything wrong, its the fans who must be at fault.

#3630 User is offline Wing 

Posted 17 July 2010 - 01:32 PM

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You can look at the episodic format in a positive way too, at least Dimps can fix their previous idiotic mistakes with each episode.
However, their advertising for the game is rather stupid. It's almost as if they're screaming "Look at me! I'm only part of a complete product! Isn't that fun!?". I'm sure that's going to lose them a few sales, I already saw some people on the SOA forums who said they're waiting for a disc release. If that ever happens...

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