[Shade Vortex]

HeartAttack, on 26 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The only way to cater to everyone is to attempt to mix the styles together in one package and you get stuff like Sonic Generations.

I just wanted to point out that Sonic Generations, is ironically proof enough that, when you start mixing things together in order to please people of different groups, it tends to alienate at least some (sometimes even most of the) people from all of those groups. So that is also not a solution to please everyone- and there is none, for you can never please absolutely everyone. What Sega needs to do though is figure out a way to reach out to the widest possible target audience without deviating from the origins of Sonic (being a platforming game that has speed involved in it, that is).

...Unless that is exactly what Sonic needs to do to branch out and become more relevant. Oh god, what if Jim Sterling isn't the only one who wants Sonic to basically be just a racing game with inconsequential amounts of obstacles and platforming? THAT would be a horrific thing to see Sega do to the series, from my standpoint.

This post has been edited by Shade Vortex: 26 May 2012 - 09:33 AM

[Dark Sonic]

Shade Vortex, on 26 May 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

HeartAttack, on 26 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The only way to cater to everyone is to attempt to mix the styles together in one package and you get stuff like Sonic Generations.

I just wanted to point out that Sonic Generations, is ironically proof enough that, when you start mixing things together in order to please people of different groups, it tends to alienate at least some (sometimes even most of the) people from all of those groups. So that is also not a solution to please everyone- and there is none, for you can never please absolutely everyone. What Sega needs to do though is figure out a way to reach out to the widest possible target audience without deviating from the origins of Sonic (being a platforming game that has speed involved in it, that is).

...Unless that is exactly what Sonic needs to do to branch out and become more relevant. Oh god, what if Jim Sterling isn't the only one who wants Sonic to basically be just a racing game with inconsequential amounts of obstacles and platforming? THAT would be a horrific thing to see Sega do to the series, from my standpoint.

Honestly I think Sega should split the franchise into what they offered in Generations. One team would work on a game staring classic Sonic and the gameplay he became famous for, and the other would work on the next modern Sonic game. That way everyone is satisfied every 2 or 3 years or so.

While I may be one of the few that thinks this, I loved Sonic Generations because it has both styles of gameplay in it. It's both of what I love in one complete package. It's almost the perfect Sonic game (Sonic 3 & Knuckles will be now and forever my favorite, but Generations is definitely number 2)

To me, Generations was sega's way of saying "Here's what Sonic is. He does his boost boost boost and he also does platforming goodness. Everything else can go fuck off as we pretend it never happened." Although while it attempted to establish a canon, it doesn't quite work since some environments clash. List of environments that work together

Classic - Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary, Seaside Hill, Planet Wisp
"Realistic" - Speed Highway, City Escape, Crisis City, Rooftop Run

Honestly city levels really don't work for Sonic very well. They try to make them based off IRL locations and it just doesn't work. Also, firepocolypse doesn't quite fit the technology vs nature battle that Sonic is based on. Planet Wisp on the other hand does.

This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 26 May 2012 - 09:50 AM

[Hukos]

Dark Sonic, on 26 May 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Shade Vortex, on 26 May 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

HeartAttack, on 26 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The only way to cater to everyone is to attempt to mix the styles together in one package and you get stuff like Sonic Generations.

I just wanted to point out that Sonic Generations, is ironically proof enough that, when you start mixing things together in order to please people of different groups, it tends to alienate at least some (sometimes even most of the) people from all of those groups. So that is also not a solution to please everyone- and there is none, for you can never please absolutely everyone. What Sega needs to do though is figure out a way to reach out to the widest possible target audience without deviating from the origins of Sonic (being a platforming game that has speed involved in it, that is).

...Unless that is exactly what Sonic needs to do to branch out and become more relevant. Oh god, what if Jim Sterling isn't the only one who wants Sonic to basically be just a racing game with inconsequential amounts of obstacles and platforming? THAT would be a horrific thing to see Sega do to the series, from my standpoint.

Honestly I think Sega should split the franchise into what they offered in Generations. One team would work on a game staring classic Sonic and the gameplay he became famous for, and the other would work on the next modern Sonic game. That way everyone is satisfied every 2 or 3 years or so.

While I may be one of the few that thinks this, I loved Sonic Generations because it has both styles of gameplay in it. It's both of what I love in one complete package. It's almost the perfect Sonic game (Sonic 3 & Knuckles will be now and forever my favorite, but Generations is definitely number 2)

To me, Generations was sega's way of saying "Here's what Sonic is. He does his boost boost boost and he also does platforming goodness. Everything else can go fuck off as we pretend it never happened."

See, this is exactly the path I don't want Sonic to go down. Generations was a damn fine game, but it was also an anniversary game so it was allowed to play the nostalgia card and did it as well as it could. But I don't want nostalgia playing a factor in future releases (Which is my main issue with Sonic 4) I want to see the franchise move on and see what direction is chosen next. I honestly feel like there is a bit of positive momentum with the franchise right now and want that put to good use, hopefully in a modern 3D game. That "essence" at least for me seems to be coming back. It's a different one than the classic 2D games had to them, but that's not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

I love the hell out of those games, but goddamn I'm not ashamed to say that I've moved on and it wouldn't bother me if we never saw a game like that ever again. That magic is long gone, and I don't expect it to ever come back. What I do want, is for Sega to capture a "new" magic with Sonic. Call me crazy but for the first time in a long time I think Sega is possibly headed in that direction. Unleashed was rough around the edges but had some solid ideas and a foundation for Colors and Generations to build off of and improve (Because that's what sequels do) and subsequently, make their own "essence". It's not the same as the classic Sonic one, but I'm perfectly fine with that. I want to see what Sega does with it and if they can build that momentum forward and make more great games (Which I hope they can)

If at any point in time Sega announces a 2D game and a 3D one at the same time, I'll be frank I'm more interested in how the 3D one develops. I want Sonic to progress forward and make his own mark, not to take steps backward. Of course, that involves taking chances but I think that's worth the risk when the rewards are potentially unlimited.

[Palas]

HeartAttack, on 26 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Palas,

I think your "article", if I may, is full of wonderful insight with regards to keeping already-existing brands relevant, even if they're beyond their prime. It seems to me that you do have some wisdom to share that companies of all sorts could use to help keep their brands relevant in many ways. In the spirit of keeping this relatively short, I'll spare specifics - but I do agree with a number of things you outlined. However, it's already evident that some people don't agree with some of your critiques or proposed potential fixes to the "problems". I quote "problems" because many of these "problems" are not problems at all to some people. When you say that YOU don't think X game was an improvement over Y game for reason Z, that's simply your opinion in a sea of infinite other opinions, each one just as valid and relevant as the other. I see a whole lot of "well, no, this is why you're wrong" coming from you in your responses to those who don't agree with you on certain things here. You can't really throw out opinions and treat them as fact, it just doesn't work out that way.

I think this very thread and the way it has progressed is quite symbolic of the real "problem": the fact that the Sonic fan base is so divided. Some of us love what they've given us in the 3D games, and others hate it. Some of us like Sonic 4, and others hate it. Some of us like WereSonic, and others hate it. There's this situation where we all think we are "right" in what a "good" Sonic game is. The interesting part is that none of us are actually wrong. If you think game X is vastly superior to game Y then there is no one that can change that. Your opinion cannot be wrong. We have all these separate camps of people who prefer specific styles of Sonic gameplay, and the fact of the matter is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone all at once. It's this sort of unique situation where, no matter which camp Sega caters to in any given game, there will ALWAYS be that separate camp who opposes that style...and the cycle goes on and on and on and...

The only way to cater to everyone is to attempt to mix the styles together in one package and you get stuff like Sonic Generations. Same story, one package. It "fixes" nothing. Maybe it's all just Sega's fault because they happened to create so many different game styles that people would like and just as many would loathe. I'm really not sure. What I do know, though, is that it's hard to point to who's at fault for a "problem" which is more of an illusion than anything. Ah - but there I go with my opinion again. Silly me - I really should try harder to remember that this debacle is just as much of a real problem to others as it is an illusion to me

Main point: we all have a different view of what a good Sonic game is. Sega, as a business, has made a model that does more good for it than bad. They reached out and grabbed different gameplay markets. Most would consider that to be a smart model. It's either die by loss of interest due to repetition or take a gamble on variety and manage the resulting opinion wars.

I see, and I'm sorry for being this aggressive.

However, can we agree that we only have such a large number of styles to compliment because they were created in the first place? Not only gameplay-wise. That's why, imo, it is SEGA's fault indeed, and for the reason you've mentioned. The route SEGA chose, it seems, was the third option - dying by loss of interest due to repetition of gambling on variety. The opinion wars are inevitable, but they could at least have put everything under the same universe.

I understand that some might say it's everything due to the fact that Sonic is no longer the mascot of a notorious company, but this doesn't exclude the possibility of Sonic not having been managed properly since then.

Thing is: a stance of middle ground doesn't work just so well as a stance of a single ground imo - and there's not much room for different views of what a good Sonic game is if you create many Sonics.

That's not to say that Sonic should never change, that's not it. I don't like Sonic Rush (I REALLY don't) but it sold well, was praised by the critics and had the potential to create a new Sonic without mixing everything together. The boost, Blaze, the cohesive art style, this could all have been used as a landmark, a starting point. There's a distinctive Sonic Rush feel, that's what I mean. The problem would be if, for example, Sonic 4 had the name of "Sonic Rush 2" or something. Or if Sonic Unleashed had the name of "Sonic Adventure 3".

I do think moving on is important. Forget the classics if you want. But do it with a long-term project in mind and don't try to please specific groups - focus on making Sonic pleasing, this much I find important - it's essential. I doubt Tetris had a specific target audience (having been developed in USSR, even moreso) like "children" or "Americans" (having been developed in USSR, even moreso), let alone both with different sequels.

[Equinox Dawn]

To me, I cannot get into the newer games. While I have Colors, Generations, Unleashed and 06' on my shelf, I have not played through them obsessively. I haven't even finished severa; of them, I just forced myself halfway through the game, and ended up watching the cut scenes on somebody else's play through.

I can remember some of the hype leading up to the games, and vaguely remember purchasing them, only to regret spending the precious money later. It's not that they were bad, it's just that I didn't get satisfaction out of them.

When I purchased Sonic Adventure, and Sonic Adventure 2 with my first memory card, the memories are so vivid I can remember the shirt I was wearing and what my shoes looked like. I was pretty young at the time, and bought the games when both of them came out. But I was so excited, I couldn't bear the ride home to play it. (It ended up being a scratched disk because it was used...) Regardless, I felt that sonic feel.

When I bought the Dreamcast, the deciding factor was seeing the Dreamcast Era signature round sonic, sticking his thumb up for me. When I saw him, I had decided, even without knowing how good of a system the DC was, or looking into any reviews.

It's all about the essence, and I really don't feel like that will ever come back. The chances are pretty slim he can grab a hold that strong again for newcomers into the franchise. But he might, time will tell.

[Palas]

Just a little thought I had and that seemed rather amusing to me:

And about the way Sonic dies nowadays. What's so wrong with him flying off the screen? Do the devs fear people will find things too absurd? That people might make fun of it, with animated skits of furries agonizing on their deathbeds and suddenly flying off with arms spread and a surprised face?

Please.

That does nothing but unintentionally advertise the brand and help leaving a mark. Kind of like when people point out just how absurd game logic can be, and it turns out it's not a bad thing. When you mix common logic with the franchise's self-generated, unique logic, things get stupid, because you have a base of comparison: the real world. And that's the most dangerous base one can have. I mean, that's turning your back to what you created yourself.

[TheInvisibleSun]

Palas, on 06 September 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Just a little thought I had and that seemed rather amusing to me:

And about the way Sonic dies nowadays. What's so wrong with him flying off the screen? Do the devs fear people will find things too absurd?

They might not have been able to figure out how to do it right from a 3D view/perspective.

[Palas]

Well, he just... flies off. There is even a ROM hack that pictures how this could be. And it's like this in Sonic Generations anyway

This post has been edited by Palas: 06 September 2012 - 04:25 PM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I'm of an entirely different opinion. I see Sonic coming out of a big slump, and only part way to going back to what made Sonic so compelling all those years ago. The marketing is much better and Sonic is much more noticeable lately. I see people (kids and adults) walking around with Sonic clothing, bags, toys, stickers, games and things, and the games themselves have also climbed the ladder of social gaming, and loads of people are downloading the classics or the 2D games. My brother even got his mates to get Generations when they've never even played a 3D Sonic before, and they love it.

Sonic Team already hit the nail on the head with some pretty good decisions for the games themselves too, including:

* Less serious storylines with more carefree voice acting at an acceptable level of 'cartoony'.
* More focus on Sonic & Robotnik and less on his friends.
* A bigger focus on a cartoon style- the colourful worlds that aren't always realistic, the creature-based robots, the wackier contraptions etc.
* More varied styles of music.
* Use of a larger range of tropes and locations in games.
* A focus on leaderboards and sharing scores.
* Blending 2D and 3D gameplay styles to lesser alienate people who remember Sonic only as a 2D series.

I remember in 2002/2003 when Sonic became big again with the exposure the series had on multiple systems with Sonic Heroes. This period had some great consoles with a wide amount of publicity because of who those consoles (The GameBoy Advance, Gamecube, PS2 and Xbox) reached. There were some fantastic games out with pretty much all of them getting good to great scores. It originally started With Advance, Adventure 2 Battle and Mega Collection, and then Sonic Adventure DX and then Heroes which was the point where all systems got the same Sonic game for the first time. Alongside this you had titles like the other Advance games, with Gems Collection released late in 2005 as well as Rush. This good period was short lived and pretty much ended with Shadow The Hedgehog which was released at the same time as Rush and just after Gems. Then Yuji left and the next game (2006) headed in to the abyss. Sonic started becoming a whorefest for SEGA who loved the success of the first few years of the Sonic relaunch in the 6th generation after the Dreamcast dumped and they had to resort to being a third party.

Since then, Soni games have been more diluted. The storybook series was okay but unessecary. The Riders series was too futuristic and brought nothing to the table, and Sonic was whacked in to a bunch of games like SEGA AllStars without the quality branding behind his own individual games. Unleashed was a step in the right direction but still kept with a too realistic and dull setting, and it was only with Colours where they picked up what made the originals so great but with more platform based 2D sections. Sonic 4 was alright but the game clearly had an identity crisis, and Generations got everything right, and I'm looking forward to the next games.

I don't expect there to be another dip now they've finally taken the right steps (and a lot of wrong ones) to perfect the formula for technology these days.