[P3DR0]

Yeah bro, open a S4AYII forum, seems a nice idea, people are giving good thoughts and stuff.

About the walljump, I think on Sonic Generations, I wouldn't really mind if it was mandatory, I mean the walljump isn't a abillity that slow the progress or cut the flow it's fast and easy to use. With this move you could expand your level vertically since now aren't just Tails and Knuckles that can go upwards without slopes 'n shit.



(That feeling when you just woke up and can't barely draw)

This post has been edited by P3DR0: 15 April 2012 - 11:32 AM

[Aerosol]

I hate the idea of Sonic having a move that enables vertical exploration. If you're planning on adding Tails and Knuckles, then what's the point? Anything Sonic can walljump off of, Tails can fly up and Knuckles can climb. Unless you aren't planning to add them in (which I think you said you are), there's almost literally no point to it.

How about a move that enables Sonic to get through levels even faster? Something that emphasizes his attributes, like how flying emphasizes Tails' and climbing emphasizes Knuckles'. I'm not talking about boosting, because that has very little place in a game based on the classics. But I wouldn't mind seeing a toned down version of his Hyper Sonic jump dash. Think Sonic's jump dash in Sonic Advance 2. The one that was activated by double tapping forward.

[Falk]

I actually think wallclimbing is neat. While Sonic can be attributed as forward motion and Tails can be attributed as upward motion, it doesn't mean Tails is a sloth- his spindash allows him to at least keep up with Sonic at pre-breakneck speeds. Similarly a wallclimb would give Sonic -some- upward mobility while not being as universally functional as simply flying (since it's dependent on level geometry).

And let's be honest, walljumping really is something you'd expect Sonic to be able to do as a character. With how the 2D games' momentum is as a baseline I really don't foresee being able to single-wall-climb being possible/exploitable.

It also could be turned into something more of a skill-based time-shaving gimmick. Let's say there are two separate wallclimb moves. The first is how it is in the 2D sections of recent games - if Sonic is moving at an angle close to perpendicular to a vertical surface, he can stick onto it, then jump will propel him at a set velocity/trajectory. However, if you hit jump right before hitting the wall (think similar timing to S3&K instashield) he bounces off the wall retaining his velocity, which would be a cool feature to have for speedrunning.

[Sonica]

AerosolSP, on 15 April 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I hate the idea of Sonic having a move that enables vertical exploration. If you're planning on adding Tails and Knuckles, then what's the point? Anything Sonic can walljump off of, Tails can fly up and Knuckles can climb. Unless you aren't planning to add them in (which I think you said you are), there's almost literally no point to it.

How about a move that enables Sonic to get through levels even faster? Something that emphasizes his attributes, like how flying emphasizes Tails' and climbing emphasizes Knuckles'. I'm not talking about boosting, because that has very little place in a game based on the classics. But I wouldn't mind seeing a toned down version of his Hyper Sonic jump dash. Think Sonic's jump dash in Sonic Advance 2. The one that was activated by double tapping forward.

You know... you are right.

So... something to emphasise Sonic's 'sonic' (or speed).
While I think the air dash you mentioned might be the answer to the problem, it would be best done with an in-air jump press, but this is already taken by the insta-shield. If someone could suggest an easy way to execute this move, I think this will be the one. I'm saying this because I don't want to make the player double tap anything, that's just delaying that short space in between each tap. Or, I could say bye bye to the insta-shield because it's crap and doesn't count as a move .

[Aerosol]

Hold down jump for a second or so and release for a short dash? You could also provide some visual cue that when the player releases jump, they'll dash, not use an insta-shield. Though maybe that's overcomplicating things. I wouldn't recommend you get rid of the insta-shield though. I utilize it quite frequently in S3K to hit badniks right before they're about to hit me, or to get through some badnik defenses (fuckin' orbinauts).

[Tiller]

Well that's why I was suggesting the wall jump would be more like ping pong and Sonic goes faster for every timed jump he makes. It wouldn't give him vertical exploration unless you design a level that way. It allows him to change directions and keep momentum.
But if you want a move that emphasizes speed, I suggested an aerial spin dash before. While in the air you can input the commands and charge a spindash which you can release when you hit the ground or keep charging. It won't take you far if you let it loose in the air, but it will let you take off when you hit the ground. Sort of like Brawl does Sonic's spindash moves. Problem is limiting it somehow. Maybe you have to attain a certain speed to use it in the air, or be in the wheely leg animation or something.

This post has been edited by Tiller: 15 April 2012 - 03:14 PM

[Aerosol]

How often do you need to change direction in a Sonic game? And why do it with a wall jump when you could make use of a rollercoaster element to heighten excitement? Hydrocity did it, and did it well. And an aerial spin dash like you're suggesting requires you to stop pressing whichever direction you're pressing for momentum, and press down instead. That'd annoy the crap out of me, and I'd never use it.

This post has been edited by AerosolSP: 15 April 2012 - 03:29 PM

[Jayextee]

AerosolSP, on 15 April 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I hate the idea of Sonic having a move that enables vertical exploration. If you're planning on adding Tails and Knuckles, then what's the point?

This.

Guys, it's not broke so stop trying to fix it.

This post has been edited by Jayextee: 15 April 2012 - 03:39 PM

[P3DR0]

Really? You're discarting something that would made the level design more interesting for... Dashing? Isn't that one of the reasons that people nowadays complains that Sonic is a "Boost to Win" game? Because they're ignoring plataforming and exploration to put speed instead.

Knuckles abillities were made so he could smash rocks at S3&K discovering new paths. The gliding and the climb were added so he wouldn't be just a Sonic that goes into different routes at certain times.

So here is what you have:


Tails still is the easy mode of the game since he can fly all the way upwards to the upper path. Knuckles is the middle term between Sonic and Tails, you can climb up and follow Sonic's route which is a little more easier but slower or you can sacrifice a few seconds climbing up to Tails' path which is more difficult but faster, I guess that can put Knuckles in the "hard mode" setting since you have to do more choices, be more careful and stuff. Realizing that Knuckles cannot jump as high or run as fast as Sonic, taking Sonic's route can be less productive than taking a few seconds to take Tails route, but in the same way, Knuckles can't fly like Tails, so... Yeah, hard mode.

And finally, Sonic, he can wall jump which helps him climb walls and find new paths, hidden itens, etc... But unlikely Tails or Knuckles, he doesn't have much of air control while doing this do he is more vulnerable to suffering accidents since he have to time his moves and use his reflexes since he's against the wall for just a few seconds and slowly sliding down. And with a good level design you can create situations like this:

Situations that does challenge the player but doesn't break the speed, the action or the flow of the game. Think on how Megaman X inovated over the Megaman' Series introducing the wall jump. How the levels expanded vertically and were more fun and enjoyable to play, how it had well-hidden stuff that required the player to use his new abillity but didn't destroyed the flow of the game because you stopped going foward for a second and start going upwards to get an upgrade, an iten or in case of a Sonic game, a new path.

With the wall jump each character has uniqueness and now can explore not just horizontally but vertically as well. This helps expand the level design, doesn't make Sonic more overpower than the rest of the characters and helps to create ocasions and bosses that could put that in a good use. An example of that working is in Rayman Origins, especially at the Treasure levels where you had to put your skills to good use.

Also I don't see how an dash could help Sonic at all, it could only be used like in Sonic 4, where you're stopped at some place and use the air dash to get to full speed in no time.

This post has been edited by P3DR0: 15 April 2012 - 04:02 PM

[W.A.C.]

I don't under the hate for wall jumping or the hate toward vertical level design. Wall jumping worked really damn well in both Sonic 2 Retro Remix and the modern Sonic games. Though if you want to add a move to Sonic that emphasis his speed, try adding more ways Sonic can run on walls. Wall running controls really damn well in Mirror's Edge 2D as well as the wall climbing.

Edit-

Mirror's Edge 2D's wall running didn't allow you to run on walls for very long so it wouldn't necessarily screw up an advantage Knuckles has.

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 15 April 2012 - 04:12 PM

[Aerosol]

@P3DR0

Three things. First, your first picture just proves my point. Tails and Knuckles can already do it, so what's the point in Sonic being able to do it too? You often could use Knuckles' climbing ability to get to Sonic's route in S3K as it is. Now you're adding something just for the sake of it. The level design shouldn't be bending to fit the abilities of the characters in it. Certainly not to the extent that you're suggesting.

Second, your second example has the issue of creating situations that make specific use of a walljump ability that only Sonic would have. Boring. And using Megaman X as an example isn't helping you because it's a completely different style of game. Vertical exploration is alright for Megaman, but at the end of the day, Sonic is about getting from A to B. You can explore, sure, but Sonic should be using skills natural to his attributes to get around. Jumping off walls isn't natural to his attributes at all. You don't have to be fast to jump off of walls. Just look at...Megaman X

Third, I can tell you didn't properly read my post. I made reference to the air dash in Sonic Advance 2, which doesn't create "instant speed" at all. It adds to the momentum you already have. Where you got that I was talking about some kind of "boost to win" from is beyond me, especially since I explicitly stated that I wasn't talking about boosting.

@WAC

And two things to you sir. One, I'd argue that the walljump adds little to the gameplay and feels out of place. Two, the way wall running works in Mirror's Edge 2D is entirely incompatible with Sonic gameplay. What the hell would you use it for? And I'm not talking about for one or two gimmicks or specially made sections in a level. On a regular basis, what would you use it for?

This post has been edited by AerosolSP: 15 April 2012 - 04:27 PM

[Sonica]

Hhhhh, now I don't know, you all have an arguments and points.

Perhaps I'll just decide what I'll have more fun implementing, air boost or wall jump. (I think the wall jump could really be cool, even if it means forcing it!)

This post has been edited by Sonica: 15 April 2012 - 04:18 PM

[CorralSummer]

Never liked the idea of a wall jump idea.
You obviously could add a super peel out. Maybe make it so you can use it while running so you don't lose speed (like in Sonic Generations how you could just hold square and use the spindash) Then there would be a reason to use it rather than the spin dash.

Edit:
This actually could work out. You can do it while running, but it stops you and it doesn't give you invincibility. So it's not a boost to win. Also because you can do it in the middle of running there would be a reason to use it rather then the spin dash.

This post has been edited by CorralSummer: 15 April 2012 - 04:34 PM

[Falk]

Oh, oh, wallrunning is actually a nifty idea, even if nothing more than a recurring gimmick in several acts.

Edit: Derp, just checked out ME2D. What I had in mind was more of a running-forwards-along-the-backdrop type idea usable only on certain tiles, with marginal up/down control. And if you dropped below a certain forward velocity you fall off the wall.

This post has been edited by Falk: 15 April 2012 - 04:23 PM

[jasonchrist]

Sonica, on 15 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

(I think the wall jump could really be cool, even if it means forcing it!)

*cries and grabs trouser leg* please god, no!!