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Choose graphics rendering system for Sonic 2 HD's new engine in development (119 member(s) have cast votes)

1: Which render would you like the S2HD engine to be primary developed with?

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2: Do you want Sonic 2 HD to run fast rather than look good?

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Vote

S2HD Render Engine Test Test and choose between 5 different renders...

#16 User is offline Hivebrain 

Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:16 AM

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They all ran at less than 30fps on my 2GHz, 2GB RAM laptop with a mediocre graphics card.

#17 User is offline Conan Kudo 

Posted 06 April 2009 - 03:40 AM

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All of them ran equally well on Yggdrasil (my main desktop) except for R5.


Yggdrasil stats:
CPU: Intel Pentium 4 2.8GHz HT (32-bit only)
RAM: 3.25GB RAM
Graphics card: ATi Radeon X1300 256MB VRAM
OS: Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 Service Pack 3 with Update Rollup 2

R1: 27% CPU, 208MB RAM
R2: 23% CPU, 111MB RAM
R3: ~20% CPU, 110MB RAM
R4: ~30% CPU, 91MB RAM
R5: ~50% CPU, 180MB RAM

R5 felt like it was mixing in software rendering, it was really that choppy. Incidentally, I have yet to test on Wine with Skuld or Urd (my two other laptops).

R1 and R4 ran the best on my machine. However, all of them had slight issues with multitasking. Additionally, why is it that the engine isn't multithreaded or if it is, why isn't it taking advantage of multiple logical cores on the CPU?

#18 User is offline Mush Man 

Posted 06 April 2009 - 03:53 AM

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This is my first test.

Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition 32-Bit (Version 2002) Service Pack 2
CPU: Intel Pentium Duel CPU (so I presume it means Duel Core) E2140 - 1.6Ghz
RAM: 2GB DDR2 (I think it's DDR2)
Graphics Card: Intel 82945G Express Chipset Family (Onboard I reckon) 128 MB
Screen Resolution: 1440 by 900 Desktop LCD

Result: "Fatal Error!" "Failed to Initialise Object Heap"

I'm not voting yet, 'cause this computer isn't the one I use most (in fact, I barely use this comp).

As for what graphic quality you should implement, I reckon that, if it's possible, you should offer an option to configure the level of graphical quality so the player can optimise their experience for both speed and have it looking nice.
This post has been edited by Mush Man: 06 April 2009 - 03:58 AM

#19 User is offline LOst 

Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:08 AM

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View PostT.Q., on Apr 6 2009, 05:08 AM, said:

Sometimes, when switching from one application to another (e.g. from the game to Notepad, then back to the game), the pictures would stop moving, but the game continued on (e.g. audio would played, sfx would occur when Sonic jumps). Only by nudging the windowed application would the pictures move again.

Yes, this is one thing that I can't deal with much longer. It is going to be nice to finally throw this engine into the trash.
The new engine works differently, and once I will have a clear view on the render I can develop a system that will not freeze like that.


View PostMush Man, on Apr 6 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

Result: "Fatal Error!" "Failed to Initialise Object Heap"

As for what graphic quality you should implement, I reckon that, if it's possible, you should offer an option to configure the level of graphical quality so the player can optimise their experience for both speed and have it looking nice.

About the error, that is a memory allocation error which is rare! It isn't normal allocation though so it might be something else than low memory.

We will offer options for less quality in the next engine for sure. The second poll is however important for how we will deal with the loss of quality in form of advertising. If people start posting screenshots of a low quality game, then we are not doing a great job promoting this game as high quality, so it is important to find out what you all think about the quality and if it shall be the main thing to aim for.

#20 User is offline Shanesan 

  Posted 07 April 2009 - 01:03 AM

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Hey guys. Here's my analysis.

A quick rundown of my system.

Macbook Pro running OSX 10.5.6 (latest as of post)
Using Crossover Games 7.2 (essentially WINE)

2.16 GHz Intel Core Duo
2 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM
ATI Radeon X1600 PRO (256 MB)

Here's my findings.

R1
Runs in the upper 50 FPS.
No graphical anomalies found. Screenshot of disclaimer page below.
CPU Usage is 50% of 1 CPU (credits use significantly more?? 75%).
RAM usage is ~250 MB.
Image

R2
Runs in the lower 50 / higher 40 FPS.
No graphical anomalies found. Screenshot of disclaimer page below.
CPU usage is at 35% of 1 CPU (credits use between 50 and 90%)
RAM usage is ~240 MB.
Image

R3
Runs in the low to mid 50 FPS.
No graphical anomalies found. Screenshot of disclaimer page below.
CPU usage is at 50% of 1 CPU (credits use 80%)
RAM usage is ~265 MB.
Image

R4
Runs in the high 50 FPS range.
No graphical anomalies found. Screenshot of disclaimer page below.
CPU usage is at 40% of 1 CPU (credits use 75%)
RAM usage is ~250 MB.
Image

R5
Doesn't work.
Image


Hope this helps.

#21 User is offline Lizam 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:58 AM

  • Lizam
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SystemInformation:

Windows Vista Home Premium 32 bit
Intel Duo Core E4600 @ 2.40GHz
RAM 2GB
VIDEO CARD: NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT



On 16 Player bridge demo (Window Mode):

R1: 59/60fps RAM 464,096
R2: 58/60fps RAM 122,260
R3: 58/60fps RAM 121,936
R4: 58/60fps RAM 122,396
R5: 59/60fps RAM 119,792 - 127,992 (kept jumping around)


Screen shots:
R1
R2
R3
R4
R5


There graphical differences between each one were looked so minor (or I just can't notice it) to me that they all looked fine. But if I had to choose one, I would go with R5.


Edit: Uploaded higher res images.
This post has been edited by Lizam: 07 April 2009 - 07:41 PM

#22 User is offline KuriKai 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:47 AM

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Opengl can do everything that direct3d can do. and it is cross platform.
Just look at counterstrike source running under wine in directx9 mode. it's exactly the same as it would be in windows. and all wine does is convert the calls from direct3d into opengl

#23 User is offline LOst 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:52 AM

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View PostLizam, on Apr 7 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

SystemInformation:

Windows Vista Home Premium 32 bit
Intel Duo Core E4600 @ 2.40GHz
RAM 2GB
VIDEO CARD: NVIDIA GeForece 8600 GT



On 16 Player bridge demo (Window Mode):

R1: 59/60fps RAM 464,096
R2: 58/60fps RAM 122,260
R3: 58/60fps RAM 121,936
R4: 58/60fps RAM 122,396
R5: 59/60fps RAM 119,792 - 127,992 (kept jumping around)


Screen shots:
R1
R2
R3
R4
R5


There graphical differences between each one were looked so minor (or I just can't notice it) to me that they all looked fine. But if I had to choose one, I would go with R5.


Edit: Uploaded higher res images.

Best test so far! First it is nVidia! And it is on Windows Vista! But best of all, they all rendered the same pixel perfect result! Awesome really Some of those renders are really working differently, and getting to test these on different hardware and get the same result is a big breakthrough for S2HD!


KuriKai said:

Opengl can do everything that direct3d can do. and it is cross platform...

Common knowledge really. But when it comes to vertex and texture coordinates, Microsoft (Direct3D) has really done a perfect job defining them to render exactly the same on completely different hardware. That's why Direct3D is the main choice for me, but also because Direct3D can skip 3D all together but still use the 3D accelerated hardware to draw 2D.
OpenGL is more about the simple API than the result on screen. If you care about drawing a 3D box, that can be done in OpenGL much easier than in Direct3D. But if you care how the 3D box will look like, in pixels, on screen, then there is no help whatsoever.

Sonic 2 HD is all about the result on screen, unless the second poll's second answer wins (I really don't hope so, for the artists' sake).
What the artists drew is what should be displayed on screen, that's what I think. This will not rule out OpenGL support though <- Very important to remember. Sonic 2 HD will be cross platform in the end.

#24 User is offline belink 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 12:01 PM

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Hi LOst.

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to choose the renderer instead of choosing for us. Here are my results:

Intel C2D E6400 @ 2.13ghz
Nvidia 8800GT OC
2GB RAM
Windows XP SP2

All results on Open Stage. Click the render name for screenshot.

R1: 495,620 K
R2: 114,524 K
R3: 114,388 K
R4: 114,172 K
R5: 118,554 K (for some reason R5 wouldn't run in fullscreen mode for whatever reason; it forced itself into Windowed Mode and Alt+Enter did nothing)

All of them had stable FPS: none dropped below 56 except when a Steam Community logo popped up, which resulted in drops to ~30fps.
This post has been edited by belink: 07 April 2009 - 12:07 PM

#25 User is offline Shanesan 

  Posted 07 April 2009 - 02:47 PM

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Quote

Hi all Wine users!

http://www.logotypes.se/sonic/HD/TechDemoS...leaseRender.rar (same link as before, so you can also download it in the poll post)

I have updated the render (R5) to use [edited out as requested]. I believe that is the key to not get the "No compatible pixel format descriptor!" error. However I am not 100% sure. It can also be the [omitted], so I have made a little hack that you can try:

After choosing the R5 in the combo box and pressing enter/ok, try setting the game to run at fullscreen instead of in a window in the startup dialog, that will turn on the [omitted]. Simply said:
[Omitted] (99.9% chance of working under Wine)
[Omitted] (below 50% chance of working under Wine) <- I would really want to know if this one works.


Alright. Downloaded the new code. Ran R5, using Crossover Games, first in Windowed Mode.
The stuff in brackets is the title of the window giving errors.

Error: [Error] No Compatible Pixel Format Discriptor! ( OK )
Error: [Error] Couldn't Initialize Direct3D. ( OK )

Ran R5, using Crossover Games, in "Full-Screen" mode now. It doesn't seem to go into full screen...
Error: [Error] No Compatible Pixel Format Discriptor! ( OK )
Error: [Main Error] Couldn't Initialize Direct3D. ( OK )

Let me know if there's anything I can do.


EDIT: As instructed privately :)
This post has been edited by Shanesan: 07 April 2009 - 06:01 PM

#26 User is offline Gambit 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 02:52 PM

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Well I get about 20-30 FPS for all five of them. :\ My computer is kinda crap, though. I need to save up for a new one.

1.90 GHz dual core processor, some shitty integrated video card and 2 gigs of RAM, that ends up being like 1661 MB because of the graphics card feeding off it. Oh, and I'm on Vista.

Also, did someone take one of my ring frames and color it silver in Photoshop and throw it in for that moving platform? Those rings look familiar....
This post has been edited by Gambit: 07 April 2009 - 02:53 PM

#27 User is offline Conan Kudo 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:07 PM

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View PostLOst, on Apr 7 2009, 06:52 AM, said:

KuriKai said:

Opengl can do everything that direct3d can do. and it is cross platform...

Common knowledge really. But when it comes to vertex and texture coordinates, Microsoft (Direct3D) has really done a perfect job defining them to render exactly the same on completely different hardware. That's why Direct3D is the main choice for me, but also because Direct3D can skip 3D all together but still use the 3D accelerated hardware to draw 2D.
OpenGL is more about the simple API than the result on screen. If you care about drawing a 3D box, that can be done in OpenGL much easier than in Direct3D. But if you care how the 3D box will look like, in pixels, on screen, then there is no help whatsoever.

Sonic 2 HD is all about the result on screen, unless the second poll's second answer wins (I really don't hope so, for the artists' sake).
What the artists drew is what should be displayed on screen, that's what I think. This will not rule out OpenGL support though <- Very important to remember. Sonic 2 HD will be cross platform in the end.


Doesn't the result on the screen have to do with how well Direct3D's shader support vs OpenGL's is? If that is the case, then why not use a shader compiler/optimizer with OpenGL? The main ones I can think off the top of my head are OpenCL/Gallium3D/LLVM, Cg, and GLSL.

If I recall correctly, OpenCL is supported by both AMD and nVIDIA, Gallium3D + LLVM does work on Windows and Linux and is supposed to get an OpenCL front end compiler too, while Mac OS X's Core frameworks support OpenCL already. Cg is proprietary by nVIDIA, and does work on AMD cards, but as it is proprietary, it is a problem to deal with on Linux systems currently. Granted there is an open source Cg compiler, but without supporting libraries, what is it going to do? GLSL is obviously supported on Windows and Mac OS X. GLSL is planned for support when the Gallium3D framework is completed enough that it can replace the current Mesa driver model. Additionally, because of the invasiveness of the nVIDIA proprietary Linux driver, I believe it does support GLSL.

I don't know if they are true, but I have heard people shudder at working with GLSL. I don't really know why, but then again, I don't write programs.

It would be nice if S2HD could use OpenCL, but I doubt it would happen. Cg would probably be the preferred choice since it works with both D3D and OGL.
This post has been edited by King InuYasha: 07 April 2009 - 04:25 PM

#28 User is offline Lizam 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:40 PM

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View PostLOst, on Apr 7 2009, 09:52 PM, said:

Best test so far! First it is nVidia! And it is on Windows Vista! But best of all, they all rendered the same pixel perfect result! Awesome really Some of those renders are really working differently, and getting to test these on different hardware and get the same result is a big breakthrough for S2HD!


I'm glad I could help ^^

#29 User is offline LOst 

Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:43 PM

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View PostLizam, on Apr 8 2009, 01:40 AM, said:

View PostLOst, on Apr 7 2009, 09:52 PM, said:

Best test so far! First it is nVidia! And it is on Windows Vista! But best of all, they all rendered the same pixel perfect result! Awesome really Some of those renders are really working differently, and getting to test these on different hardware and get the same result is a big breakthrough for S2HD!


I'm glad I could help ^^

Your help so far is at this moment the best help for us! There are still a few graphics cards out there that we don't know how the different renders will produce on. But nVidia (Geforce) and ATI (Radeon) are the two mainstream 3D cards out there, and those have been tested. Intel, Matrox, SIS, S3, VIA. Hopefully people with those cards can give us screenshots as well.
Even if people get low fps with some unknown (well, some brand I haven't said, because we need to know the name of the card) graphics cards, it is key to show a screenshot of the DISCLAINER screen (full with the window and everything).

If anyone wonders what I'm doing with the DISCLAIMER screen:
The original texture uses 2 colors only, black and yellow. No antialiasing. So a print screen loaded in MS Paint is all that is needed for me, and I use the fill bucket tool to change the color of those two colors, to see if the render has added some bad stuff to the original image. Having the window in the screenshot is important because even if the texture is pixel perfect, the render might have added 1 pixel offset in either direction, and that is bad. I say "might" because I have never seen it, yet.

That stuff is cool and all, but it is very rare that people will notice such render defects with the naked eye in the end. The more I check, the better the result will be, even if it might fail on some hardware, sometime in the future.
Quality for Sonic 2 HD is everything to me. I am not that worry over perfomance. Even with a boost up to full HD 1080p, it should take more RAM, possibly less RAM! And I have also seen that many people here get better results on non-window-scaled rendering, so that option will be available as well.
And for people like Hivebrain, ther will be options for rendering the game half size (720p). Window scaling has noting to do with rendering, and is a CPU thing. it is nice for people like me who has a super graphics card.
Anyway I hope this info will help some of you to undertstand how we deal with these renders.

#30 User is offline KuriKai 

Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:25 AM

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View PostLOst, on Apr 7 2009, 11:52 PM, said:

KuriKai said:

Opengl can do everything that direct3d can do. and it is cross platform...

Common knowledge really. But when it comes to vertex and texture coordinates, Microsoft (Direct3D) has really done a perfect job defining them to render exactly the same on completely different hardware. That's why Direct3D is the main choice for me, but also because Direct3D can skip 3D all together but still use the 3D accelerated hardware to draw 2D.
OpenGL is more about the simple API than the result on screen. If you care about drawing a 3D box, that can be done in OpenGL much easier than in Direct3D. But if you care how the 3D box will look like, in pixels, on screen, then there is no help whatsoever.

Sonic 2 HD is all about the result on screen, unless the second poll's second answer wins (I really don't hope so, for the artists' sake).
What the artists drew is what should be displayed on screen, that's what I think. This will not rule out OpenGL support though <- Very important to remember. Sonic 2 HD will be cross platform in the end.


That is very good to hear


On another note I'm using ubuntu jaunty, wine 1.1.18, nvidia gs8400 and R1 is the only one where I don't have any problems. in R2, R3, R4 the swing does not render, you can still jump on it but can't see it. R5 does not even work (SetProcessDPIAware error)

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