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What is a story but a miserable pile of etc etc etc

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Roller, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Roller

    Roller

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    When it comes to Sonic I didn't think I've cared about story in the series for a long time, but recently rediscovered notes about a weird theory I put on the internet a while back. This reminder awoke something primal I didn't know I still had in me, and promptly spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to graph how the theory might be applied in practice. Here's your "helpful" guide to Sonic. This isn't intended to be taken completely seriously, but it IS an exercise in how much things can be tied together from someone who thought they were over being extremely wound up about this kind of stuff.

    I'm interested in reading you guys' thoughts - whether they're on this diagram that I've probably made some obvious mistake in, or about how other people have tried (and embarassed themselves trying) to tie things together. Whether you once really cared about stuff like that, or whether it's the sort of thing you spend your Friday nights doing to this very day - it's all good. And by good, I mean bad. But the good, self-indulgent kind of bad, obviously.
     
  2. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    So let me get this straight.

    Sonic Runners - canon
    Sonic Jump/Dash - not canon

    Sonic and All Stars Racing - canon
    Sonic Drift 1 and 2 - not canon

    Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine - canon
    Sonic R - not canon

    Sonic Boom SC - canon
    Sonic Boom RoL - not canon

    Yeah okay.
     
  3. Atendega

    Atendega

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    I don't know why anyone needs a guide for this shit. Just take anything that fits with everything else in the order it was released. It's not that hard to forgive little inconsistencies or whatever.

    This is amusing though :v:
     
  4. Shakidna

    Shakidna

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    Not-destroyed moon? Not canon.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I remember this, I was the one who noted the Elise emerald being the missing 7th one in the first cycle.
     
  6. Misinko

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    The inconsistencies are absolutely gigantic though. We're not talking about little gaps here and there, we're talking gaping inconsistencies, especially when you try to factor the handheld games into the mix. There's maybe 3 games that could properly fit into the Sonic timeline (Pocket Adventure and the first two Advanced Games). The rest? Forget it. Then there's the issues going into the main line of games, the biggest being Sonic CD's placement. The Sonic timeline unfortunately cannot fit every game in it without drastically altering their plots.


    That'd work if it weren't for the fact that the blue Chaos Emerald Silver gave to Elise

    [​IMG]

    didn't also exist in Triple Trouble.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. DigitalDuck

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    I still say there are multiple sets of Chaos Emeralds and different locations have different sets.
     
  8. Misinko

    Misinko

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    That makes the most sense gameplay wise, but there's still some underlying issues there. Such as West Side Island's set somehow totally changing shape and size in between 2 and 3 (they're gigantic in 2, and tiny in 3 when Knux punches him), and how the sets between the Adventure Games and Heroes looking roughly the same despite obviously being in two entirely separate areas. For the former, you could say that Sonic went back to South Island to get their set before heading off to Angel Island, but why would he do that, and where was the 7th Emerald in Sonic 1?

    This is why trying to piece together Sonic's plot is foolhardy. You can do it, but it's in the same respect as being able to glue a jigsaw puzzle together.
     
  9. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    Nah, the moon is still destroyed, you just see the not-destroyed side of it. :v:
     
  10. DigitalDuck

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    Nah, they're not gigantic in 2. Sonic and Tails just shrink when they enter the special stage, because they have to fit through that ring portal above the checkpoint. :v:

    If you're going to retcon the looks of the emeralds under the "they're all the same set" theory, why is it not okay to retcon the looks of the emeralds under the "they're all different sets" theory? Maybe all emeralds look the same, they just change from game to game because SEGA couldn't decide on a consistent look until Sonic Adventure.
     
  11. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    https://twitter.com/indigorush101/status/841021227162619906

    I like this one better
     
  12. Dark Sonic

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    Did Sonic 1 Sonic get sent to the future in Generations, or did Sonic & Knuckles Sonic get sent over? He knows Tails and Robotnik, but he's running through GHZ.

    Maybe he's just going for a jog.
     
  13. Speeps

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    I think other than Battle having Shadow in it the post-Adventure timeline is pretty straight forward. You might argue Riders for an AU or something, but it's pretty basic considering how much of a mess putting all Classic Sonic's games into a timeline is.

    I can't get behind CD being before 2/3k because it doesn't make sense to me that Eggman would build Metal Sonic first and then the much crappier Mecha Sonics afterwards. Putting CD between the two (release order) doesn't work either because the time between 2/3 really small (a few days) and Eggman was on Angel Island the entire time with a broken Death Egg. Knuckles also shows up alongside Metal Sonic in Chaotix and Triple Trouble, which doesn't work after 4's retcon to have Metal stuck on little planet between CD/4.

    I'd say this is the case for the South Island set (6 Emeralds), because the manuals for Sonic 1 and Sonic Chaos state that South Island goes to shit when the Emeralds aren't there.
    For the stuff about the Emeralds' shape, the closest I've seen to modern chaos emeralds in the classic games is the super emeralds, which are the Sonic 2 set carried over into 3k. Of course, "Muh Hyper Sonic isn't canon", but I thought I'd bring it up anyway.
     
  14. Misinko

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    Because they still tear massive holes in the game's logic. Especially when it comes to SA2 and the Eclipse Canon. If there's multiple sets, why'd Shadow need to hop around from place to place, stealing the Emeralds instead of just going to some other area, dashing through the special stages, and nabbing the Emeralds? Why did Eggman need to wait until Tails boarded the ARK before he could nab a seventh emerald? Why did Shadow not find an Emerald and keep it on him at all times to keep his power flowing? And then going back to the original games, why did Eggman only search South Island for the Emeralds instead of putting together a world-wide taskforce? Why didn't he take the ones easily found wherever Station Square is? And then why didn't he go back to find them later on while Sonic was busy dealing with Chaos and his other creations in the modern games? Having multiple sets explains some questions, but it also leaves other unanswered.

    EDIT: And I just remembered Unleashed, which further tears the theory. Why did Sonic need to go from Temple to Temple, restoring the continents by restoring each Emerald, instead of just hopping into the Special Stages, nabbing a set of 7, and then restoring the world that way? Why would only restoring the one set turn the planet right again if there's multiple out there? Which set did Sonic use to turn Super Sonic? Why are there multiple temples only sporting one Emerald Slot if there's multiple sets for every region? Why aren't there more temples scattered across the globe that can also restore Emeralds? If there are, why didn't the Professor mention the more easily found ones? Why wasn't Eggman trying to guard each individual temple?

    This is why I prefer one set. It's simple, and makes things easier to explain.

    It makes sense if you consider Eggman building all 3 at the same time. He started off with Metal, finished him, deployed him, and then continued on Silver and Mecha. After Metal was destroyed, he deployed Silver (not quite near the final stage) and rushed to finish Mecha. When he crashed down on Angel Island, he deployed Mecha to stall Sonic before he reached the Death Egg, using prototypes of old tech. No matter how you view Sonic CD, Mecha being a total downgrade of Silver, and requiring Eggman's old machines to properly fight Sonic doesn't make any sense either. Also, we're never told how much time passed between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. We know that Sonic was on a "break" on West Side Island, but again, we don't know how long that "break" was. I will agree that the time between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 is a week at most. There's no way Sonic wouldn't pounce on the opportunity to take down Eggman once and for all. As for trying to incorporate Triple Trouble, well that's where things get hairy again. Knuckles was clearly won over by Eggman sometime after Sonic Chaos, given that you fight Knux in what is obviously an Eggman vehicle, so either he didn't learn his lesson from letting Eggman help him in Sonic 3, or he's fucking stupid in letting Eggman trick him again in Sonic 3.

    None of the Japanese Sonic 1 or Sonic 2 8-bit manuals make mention of South Island going to hell if all the Emeralds aren't there. Chaos briefly mentions it with the island sinking, but then it's retconned in Triple Trouble as Eggman has one Emerald, and no mention of the Island going haywire is present.
     
  15. DigitalDuck

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    Well, a few days (was it days? I thought it was a few weeks, but it's irrelevant either way) is long enough to have an adventure, but not with Eggman making an appearance. Sonic 4 essentially has to take place immediately after Sonic CD, and it makes sense that CD takes place after 3 because of Metal Sonic; it's also implied that CD is Sonic's first encounter with Metal Sonic, which would mean Triple Trouble must take place sometime after CD and 4. Chaotix should come sometime after that because of Metal Sonic's increase in power, and Heroes at some point further in the future with both a more advanced Metal Sonic and the return of the Chaotix.

    Tails' own games could take place either before Sonic 2, or between Sonic 3 and Sonic 4; I always picture Sonic 1 8-bit and Sonic 1 16-bit as being two different tellings of the same story; Sonic 2 8-bit and Sonic Chaos would probably take place before Sonic 2 16-bit; nobody gives a shit about Sonic Blast or Sonic 3D, and of course Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3 takes place after Sonic Heroes.
     
  16. JaredAFX

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    The timeline that Timmi linked is more sarcastic, yes, but I think it's more accurate. I believe that the simpler it is, the better. You don't need to specifically mention the Advance games because it's obvious they're between Adventure and Shadow, the Rush games are slightly after that, and the Riders games are slightly after that/during that. Your head canon has a 99% chance of being different than mine. Something I think is definitive is that if Chronicles isn't canon we can also throw out Battle and just call Gemerl in Advance 3 a coincidence. I think it makes it easier instead of trying to justify Shadow magically being back (unless you put Battle after Heroes or Shadow, but again, that's individual head canons at work).
     
  17. Pengi

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    Tails Adventures takes place before Tails met Sonic. Tails' Sky Patrol mentions Sonic in the manual, so it would come after Sonic 2.

    I doubt Sega consider either of them to be part of the main continuity though.
     
  18. biggestsonicfan

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    I never EVER thought I would ever get to post this ancient quote contextually ever again...
     
  19. David The Lurker

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    Having CD take place after 3 because of Metal Sonic is not a flawless argument, though. Metal Sonic looks more pleasing, but that is a specialized model focused on speed, right? He can harm Sonic during the race in Stardust Speedway, but only if Sonic runs into him while he's doing certain things. They are not actively battling. So Sonic wins, Metal's face flies off, and later on Eggman goes off to build the Death Egg and look for the Chaos Emeralds again. Mecha Sonic (the first one who looks silver) is nothing more than a stopgap measure by Eggman, never thinking that Sonic would get as far as he did. That model is focused more on brute force. Perhaps Mecha was a prototype to Metal that Eggman abandoned, then pulled out of storage? Maybe it was just an experiment since Metal had been defeated and lost on Little Planet and Eggman was too busy building other things to actually make an alternate version of Metal Sonic? Either way, Mecha isn't presented as some huge deal. And as Sonic 3 takes place maybe a week after 2, possibly less, Eggman is focusing rebuilding the Death Egg and tricking Knuckles and all that fun stuff. Rebuilding Mecha Sonic and painting him blue is probably a lot easier than trying to make the next step in Metal Sonic's architecture.

    Sonic 4 can't take place immediately after Sonic CD, that's silly. It has to be eleven months later. Triple Trouble can't take place at all because Sonic and Knuckles, in the Japanese manual, meet for the first time. You can't meet someone for the first time twice, and there's no way either of them forgot about the other. That's why having most of the Game Gear games being their own continuity makes sense, just because that erases so many headaches. I'd rather the Game Gear games be their own thing anyway, since we already have a million different Sonic continuities. What's the harm in another one?

    Tails' Adventures takes place before Tails meets Sonic, as stated in the Japanese manual. Is it before Sonic 2 or Sonic 1? Not super important. Chaotix takes places a couple months after 3 & Knuckles, which gives Eggman enough time to rebuild Metal Sonic and experiment with him. Before Sonic 4 came out, I always assumed Eggman just rebuilt Metal, but with Sonic 4? I like to think that we just have a trilogy of games where Metal Sonic exists but is actually a second version - Chaotix, Fighters, and R - but is destroyed/abandoned by the time we get to 4.

    Sonic 3D Blast can be part of the timeline. You can throw in the second Sonic Drift if you want to be cheeky. But Sonic 4 needs to take place after Sonic Pocket Adventure, since that game shows how Eggman changed his clothes.

    So if you wanted to glue a timeline together...

    Tails' Adventures --> Sonic the Hedgehog --> Sonic CD --> Sonic 2 --> Sonic 3 --> Sonic & Knuckles --> Chaotix --> 3D Blast --> Fighters -- R --> Pocket Adventure --> Sonic 4 --> Sonic Adventure

    SegaSonic Arcade can take place before or after the original Sonic (I go back and forth on this, since it's kinda neat to think of it as a prequel since no Chaos Emeralds are involved, but at the same time I don't want too much of Sonic's past to ever be seen in game form), either/both Drift games could be slotted in between S&K and R (though I guess the second would take place sometime after Chaotix, if we're really dealing with them), and Mania...well, we'll have to see, I guess. Though the safe bet would be between S3&K and Pocket Adventure.

    Also: the logic of the Sonic universe breaks if there are multiple sets of Chaos Emeralds post-S&K. You can make Fighters work if you say "oh maybe one of them was a fake emerald prototype tails worked on or the master emerald was involved or something. Why can't Classic Sonic from Generations just be post Sonic? Boobowski is canon in our hearts. And Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3 takes place during Sonic Adventure 2, of course.

    lol canon
     
  20. Chaos Rush

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    I like how this thread acts as an accurate representation of the Sonic the Hedgehog series canon: a bunch of nonsense.