[Joltanz Mantis]

Dark Sonic, on 07 May 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

If the fact that sega doesn't give a rats ass about rolling isn't apparent by now then you are blind. They don't know how to make a classic game anymore because the people on these teams have never done anything like it. Dimps actually almost got the physics right in generations 3ds though.

Sonics about boost boost boost now, not rolling around at the speed of sound. They're starting to learn how to do classic stuff again, but it's a learning process for them, and seeing how long it took to make a 3d sonic gameplay that people actually liked, it's gonna take a while for sonic to relearn proper rolling. This is sega/sonic team/dimps we're talking about here, not a competent developer.

The only reason they got the physics right is that they replicated Classic GHZ CNZ MHZ 1:1. They COULDN'T mess that up. Notice how afterwards Sonic gets the Homing Attack and how the levels
become unoriginal and boring, without decent (or no) remixes. Oh, and blandness. It sure feels like Blitz Sonic in there.

Sonic has changed. (in Solid Snake's voice)

Rolling was useless in Generations, AND the Spin Dash was free boost. For the air, Fire Shield. The only thing which came back was the character model, the art, and bits and pieces of layout.
I think we need Taxman to join Sonic Team.

This post has been edited by Joltanz Mantis: 07 May 2012 - 04:39 PM

[SteelBrush]

A true classic style new Sonic game is never going to happen under the current Sonic Team leadership. Iizuka doesn't care for it and quite obviously has little understanding of just what made classic Sonic so appealing, this comes across clearly when he is interviewed on the subject.

[steveswede]

Joltanz Mantis, on 07 May 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think we need Taxman to join Sonic Team.

It would be better if Taxman had his own team with members that actually give a fuck and start a retro Sonic team separate to the current members while they continue doing their Sonic the driving game hedgehog games. It's more than just getting the physics right, the fresh and original content is just as important.

[Eric Wright]

steveswede, on 07 May 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

It's more than just getting the physics right, the fresh and original content is just as important.

And that's part of the irony, because they could most certainly add new features and spruce things up- as long as it was applied appropriately across the entire game.

Sonic 2:
- higher top speed
- spin dash

The levels were build to allow the player to take better advantage of the snappier control and speed.
The levels were designed around the original core gameplay mechanics but allowed the spin dash to be used with moderate risk involved, if you knew how to plan your route and reaction in advance. There was never anything that just let you spin dash with disregard or anything that relied solely on the new ability.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles:
- insta shield
- elemental shields
- Tails can fly/swim
- knuckles can climb/glide

The insta-shield allowed you to ninja your way past enemy attacks and projectiles, land attacks on bosses if you were brave enough to take a risk (the lumberjack miniboss in Mushroom Valley is a perfect example, you can take him out while attacking him with the insta shield right through his jet flame).
The elemental shields all gave you a small advantage, but simultaneously created further obstacle.
The lightning shield gave you a double jump to get up higher, but you had to pay more attention to where you would land afterward.
THe fire shield gave you a brief air dash but you immediately lost the momentum (unless you did it right along the ground and continued running/rolling).
Both of these were also instantly taken away if you touched water, which was present in a significant number of the levels.
The Water shield let you breathe underwater, and increased your rebound from enemies/boxes substantially, but didn't offer you any boost in lateral progress, as it always made you come straight down on your double jump.
Tails' flight/swimming was limited; you were never forced to fly or swim unless you traversed your way to one of the exclusive paths. The exclusive paths often had their own specific trials to tackle (Tails' path in Marble Garden was a fucking gauntlet).
Knuckles could climb and reach higher areas, but it typically offered no speed advantage... There were also often many walls that his lower jump-height restricted him from latching onto.
His gliding was very convenient for tackling enemies, gaining vertical height off attacking an enemy/box, but whenever you came out of a glide, you always stopped dead when you landed, and started running from zero (unless you landed on a platform or bridge or something with different ground characteristics, but whatever)

In all the different paths and new opportunities in Sonic 3, they built the levels to challenge and oppose those new updates.

In Sonic 4, they've made no effort to do anything to make the homing attack something new and inclusive- you just use it everywhere without even having to think about it. The level designs of episode 2 look a little more interesting and possibly offer more exploration than episode 1, but they're still clunky and uninspired.

You can't even intelligently maintain control over sonic because if you try to jump at the edge of a platform or ledge, but accidentally press it too late- you instantly air dash into fucking oblivion somewhere. You should only be able to air dash if you're doing it after a jump.
You can't break out of loops or dash areas because of the scripted running mechanics.

There's just no attention to detail from a technical platforming perspective in Sonic 4. They have a general grasp of what THEY think a Sonic game "should be;" jump here, loop here, break this, bounce bounce bounce... but none of it has any beauty or ingenuity. The guys who made the original games weren't just cobbling shit together... hell, all the different Sonic 2 beta roms should be a PRIME example about how particular they were with building levels. Emerald hill, we've seen how many different builds of it by this point? I'm not saying they haven't spent time trying to tweak Sonic 4 to get it "right," but there's still no sense of continuity, they don't know how to make the game an engaging experience.

This post has been edited by Eric Wright: 07 May 2012 - 05:42 PM

[Joltanz Mantis]

steveswede, on 07 May 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Joltanz Mantis, on 07 May 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think we need Taxman to join Sonic Team.

It would be better if Taxman had his own team with members that actually give a fuck and start a retro Sonic team separate to the current members while they continue doing their Sonic the driving game hedgehog games. It's more than just getting the physics right, the fresh and original content is just as important.

Well, to do that, they should try to get SOA to let them become the Sonic Team of NA / EU.
We don't want Sonic 2HD speed, so if they could actually get hired, we could have a decent and OFFICIAL (no cease and desist plz) Sonic game every say, 2 1/2 - 3 years.
I agree with him getting his own team, as long as it's official.

[Dark Sonic]

If Sega did Sonic similar as to how Activision does CoD, I would be ok with that. Sonic Team Jp makes a Sonic game every 2 years or so using Modern Sonic gameplay. A new Taxman based team would make a new 2D Sonic game every 2 years or so. Dimps is gone.

Everyone wins.

[Guess Who]

"Sonic 4 doesn't live up to the classics" and "Taxman should make new Sonic games" are both incredibly interesting and refreshing opinions. I'm glad you guys are bringing new ideas to the table instead of ranting on about the same tired shit for two years. This is really the kind of discussion we need at Retro, right here.

[steveswede]

Guess Who, on 07 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

"Sonic 4 doesn't live up to the classics" and "Taxman should make new Sonic games" are both incredibly interesting and refreshing opinions. I'm glad you guys are bringing new ideas to the table instead of ranting on about the same tired shit for two years. This is really the kind of discussion we need at Retro, right here.

Really? I've been bleating on about having two teams to do separate genres of Sonic games for ages and in all honesty I would love to stop bitchin about physics and new content. But I have my mission and I plan to succeed so we can all be happy.

EDIT:

(I may have missed the sarcasm but I'm cool for making a fool of myself).

This post has been edited by steveswede: 07 May 2012 - 05:57 PM

[Friend of Sonic]

What is there left? It's obvious there are some design philsophies that many of us disagree with from Dimps. We can't just invent new things to bitch about.

[Steven M]

Guess Who, on 07 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

"Sonic 4 doesn't live up to the classics" and "Taxman should make new Sonic games" are both incredibly interesting and refreshing opinions. I'm glad you guys are bringing new ideas to the table instead of ranting on about the same tired shit for two years. This is really the kind of discussion we need at Retro, right here.

Passively-aggressively complaining about other people complaining is productive because

[Walnut]

Friend of Sonic, on 07 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

What is there left? It's obvious there are some design philsophies that many of us disagree with from Dimps. We can't just invent new things to bitch about.

WHY IS SONIC BLUE AND NOT MORE PURPLE THIS ANGERS ME MORE THAN SONIC'S EYE COLOR

Let's rant about that for thirty pages!

[Metal Man88]

Guess Who, on 07 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

"Sonic 4 doesn't live up to the classics" and "Taxman should make new Sonic games" are both incredibly interesting and refreshing opinions. I'm glad you guys are bringing new ideas to the table instead of ranting on about the same tired shit for two years. This is really the kind of discussion we need at Retro, right here.

Heck, it's older than that. Back 10 years ago, we just said that and replace the name Taxman with some older programmer that was around then (Stealth maybe?) and instead of Sonic 4 it was Sonic Advance series, or maybe Sonic Heroes/SA2.

This fanbase is just stuck in the mud. Sometimes I think they deserve bad games, as they wouldn't appreciate a good game if it crashed directly into the nearest digital device they had and rocked their face with pure awesomeness.

Although, back in the Simon era, we just didn't let these people in at all. :p

This post has been edited by Metal Man88: 07 May 2012 - 06:30 PM

[Guess Who]

Friend of Sonic, on 07 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

What is there left? It's obvious there are some design philsophies that many of us disagree with from Dimps. We can't just invent new things to bitch about.

If all you have to bitch about is the same thing everyone's complained about for years, why bother posting? No one's making you post.

Steven M, on 07 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Guess Who, on 07 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

"Sonic 4 doesn't live up to the classics" and "Taxman should make new Sonic games" are both incredibly interesting and refreshing opinions. I'm glad you guys are bringing new ideas to the table instead of ranting on about the same tired shit for two years. This is really the kind of discussion we need at Retro, right here.

Passively-aggressively complaining about other people complaining is productive because

Consider it a warning from a moderator that unless your post is constructive and thoughtful and not just the same old "Dimps is stupid"/"Taxman should work for Sega" bandwagoning that's been spouted a thousand times before, your post will get trashed, and repeat offenders will get punished appropriately.

For instance: Eric Wright, much as I may not agree with him on some things, is taking the effort to articulate and explain what he dislikes and what should be different. Aim for that, don't simply regurgitate worn-out talking points like how much you hate the homing attack or how Sega is deliberately trying to kill your childhood.

[Machenstein]

I still maintain that Sonic 4 should be one big game with tons of care put into it. The level ideas for Episode 2 aren't bad at all, and I look forward to seeing what Episode 3 has to offer. I'd like to see a retail title that takes the levels from Episode 2 and onward and redesign the level layouts to be less reliant on the Homing Attack and tag team abilities. Reduce the number of speed boosters, instant springs and bottomless pits, redo the soundtrack with better instrumentation, and give the player the option to play as Sonic, Tails and Knuckles by themselves. Cram in as much new content as you can that wasn't in the original Sonic 4 and, there you go, an adequate sequel to the Genesis games.

A Sonic Advance remake by Taxman would suffice too.

[Joltanz Mantis]

In other news, PSN finally has (EU) and is finally getting (NA) Sonic avatars. I've waited for too long. Tomorrow, I'm buying them. A friend of mine in the UK has it in my face on his profile card.

Also, link: http://www.sonicstad...-now-available/
I'm liking every one of them.

As for the levels, Machenstein, the only thing which is original is the level tropes. I've explained a few pages ago how the only new thing is the art, which is fantastic (excluding White Park).

The level design and hasn't added much. It's still mostly automated. As for the ''improved'' physics, they are quite useless, since the levels are still full of automation or as you said forced Homing Attack / Tails abuse.
The only places where rolling is useful are the places intended by the developers. That is, huge downhill slopes which REALLY don't fit in with the rest of the level with the only goal of shutting us up about the crappy rolling.
Fortunately, they managed to incorporate interesting alternate paths this time around. Funny thing about them is that in Sky Fortress ACT 2, some of them are reachable by skipping springs / speed boosters, so kudos to them. For your first time and bad players, you get automation, but if you explore a bit, it gets somewhat better.

The badniks are also nice, apart from White Park (in my opinion, the worst zone in the game). The seal is boring, the bear is unnecessary and the ice background is boring and two-dimensional. IceCap Zone had an interesting cave background in act 2, but this is pathetic.

The music can stay the same, since I can just turn it down and put some other Sonic soundtracks over it.

The highlights of this game are the bosses. They're new, dynamic, and legitimately challenging. Just try not to abuse Tails for a decent challenge. They know their bosses.