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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Well, yes the green areas of the city are Sonicy looking, which makes sense and I'm fine with this (And as you later edited there are no checkered patterns here). The block trees were also in Sonic Lost World. In fact I'm glad they blended a city with this green environment, because it tries to piece together Sonic's world which honestly makes no fucking sense. How can Green Hill Zone and Hill Top Zone exist besides Not Greece (Apotos), Red Mountain, and Station Square (and then what does Station Square look like, as in one game it's like New York and in another it's like San Francisco)? This looks like their first ever attempt at blending this world they've largely ignored for the past 20 years.

    Cities have parks and coasts, that's the case here it seems.
     
  2. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    Little bits. Nakamura (game director) wanted the music to be more "intense" for this game, so that's what Ohtani has gone for. You can hear it, albeit not very clearly, in the background of the gameplay footage. Aaron said that he'll see if it's possible to post up a snippet of the music in the coming months as more info about the game is divulged. He specified, of course, that he's not making any promises because these things require approval from the powers that be.

    Senoue has contributed to the soundtrack in a small way at least. Ohtani wrote the theme song and asked Senoue to find a vocalist. Apparently, they did the same for Unleashed, Colours and '06. It's not really clear yet if Senoue is also a contributing artist on the soundtrack otherwise. All we know for sure is that Ohtani is the sound director, and big Sonic games always have a sizeable team of musicians involved to differing degrees. For the record, Ohtani previously directed '06, Unleashed, Lost World and Runners, and contributed in large to SA2, Heroes, Colours and Generations. The man is certainly talented and very versatile.

    I think that's about it for Forces. The two also talked about their favourite compositions for the series (Rooftop Run and Escape from the City amongst them). Interestingly, Senoue said he went through eight different songs before finally creating and deciding upon Open Your Heart as the theme for SA1. Fun bit of trivia that we'll probably never know anything more about.
     
  3. big smile

    big smile

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    As dumb as it seems Iizuka had said in the past that the Sonic games take place on two different worlds. So Green Hill and Apotos would be on two different planets. But hopefully the blended environment in the Forces trailer is a sign that they've ditched that stupid two planet idea.
     
  4. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Another one of his dumb ass lore explanations I'm sure, right up there with the blown up moon thing (It turned around guys). I'm sure the real answer is just "I have no idea," but at least it looks like they're trying to address the situation.

    Of course, no one cares about these details outside of hardcore fans, but when you look at, say, Nintendo's famous series, they have either much more consistent world design or better explanations for variety.
     
  5. Beltway

    Beltway

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    Wait, so the interview confirmed Shun Nakamura as the game director for Sonic Forces, as well as the game producer?
     
  6. Blue Blood

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    Whatever role he was confirmed to be taking on before. I thought they said director before. But if it was producer, I'm mistaken. He's only got the one position here.
     
  7. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    Instead of a wall of text no one would be bored enough to read, I decided to put the majority of my feelings about Forces so far in a video instead.

    http://youtu.be/GXMj8WSS_PY
     
  8. Felik

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    Great video, TheKazeblade. Summarizes my thoughts on Mania/Forces perfectly.
    I wish you were a seasoned youtuber cause I really liked your style. Still subbed though :)
     
  9. Josh

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    I absolutely loved that, and agree with almost everything you articulated. The only thing I could take issue with is that I don't think you really justified your argument that continuing down this road would eventually cause the brand to collapse. Dilute it, certainly, but it's a bit too much of a leap to say that playing on nostalgia would cause it to run out of steam, at least anytime soon. Other than that, seriously, this was fantastic. You've got a new sub, and I'll be happy to help if you have any questions when it comes to the YouTubez. :)
     
  10. big smile

    big smile

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    Excellent video TheKazeblade , but I guess I am in the minority as I don't entirely agree. The Adventure to Unleashed games definitely were guilty of being ‘jacks of all trades’ and the core Sonic game play suffered as a result of all the dev time spent on the extra hunting/fishing/Chao/shooting modes.

    Starting with Colors, Sonic Team have done a better job of being more disciplined in their focus. I don't think the Boost game play is strong enough to stand on it's own (I know the DS games managed it, but there were smaller in size compared to the home games). The 2D and whisps power-up bits of Colors worked brilliantly to keep the boost fresh and stopped it getting repetitive. In many ways it almost felt like the classic games, which also worked in other things to stop the speed bits from getting stale.

    Generations was more disjointed as Classic Sonic was a separate mode. But it was mostly well done and served as a complement to Modern Sonic rather than distracting from it. It doesn't feel like the Modern levels would have been that much better if they had used the dev time that was spent on Classic.

    I do agree that Classic Sonic lacks impact in Forces because Sonic Team have over-tapped nostalgia. But at the same time, Classic Sonic was an enjoyable part of Generations and I'd take that over another misguided attempt like Lost World/Boom. Plus, I think they are only using him because it's an anniversary game (He didn't appear in Lost World for example). At this point in time, I'd actually say playing it safe is a good thing for the brand, as after misfires like Lost World and Boom, it needs to be able to deliver a few titles that are actually fun to play before it has another go at experimentation. I'm also hoping that Forces will be able to slightly evolve the Classic formula (without ruining it of course).
     
  11. TimmiT

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    Like the others said: great video!

    I disagree. Boost gameplay style definitely has the potential to stand strongly on its own. Maybe not in its current form, but then that's mostly cause it has never had room to grow. Any potential for the style to evolve into something that can stand on its own is thrown away because instead of the dev team focusing on doing that, they focus on inserting other gameplay styles like classic Sonic and Wisps.

    And Sonic Team has not become more disciplined in their focus since Colors. In Colors they still tried to change the focus from the boost gameplay style to be more puzzle platforming focused, which doesn't work all that well for the style. I mean, it worked decently enough for the game to be better received than 3D Sonic normally is. But still, the level design in Colors is different from what the style was designed for. The style is designed for levels like in Unleashed and Generations, where they're designed with speedrunning in mind, and the goal is to get through the stage as fast as possible while boosting as much as possible. Colors throws that all out and instead focuses on power-ups and slower platforming sections.

    Colors being so focused on puzzle platforming instead is yet another thing that shows that Sonic Team doesn't know what to do with the style. They threw away the speedrunning style they had and instead tried to create a game that's basically "what if Sonic had more puzzle platforming elements". Sonic Team still seemingly didn't have much of an idea of what to do with the franchise and once again experimented trying to create something different from the last game despite having already found a pretty good gameplay style in Unleashed. On top of that, Sonic Team still found that they had to pad the game out so that it was far longer. It's just that instead of adding yet another completely different gameplay style, they gave each zone twice as many acts as it originally was going to have. Or at least I imagine that's the case cause half of the acts in each zone are just rushed together variations of the zone's other half of acts.

    Generations meanwhile is just as disjointed as Unleashed was, it's just that this time the other half of the game was actually pretty good instead of it being a tedious mediocre God of War wannabe. Which meant a better 3D Sonic than we usually got, but still a disjointed one with two different gameplay styles instead of one fully developed one. Then they simply threw away the boost gameplay style which they still haven't improved on as much as they can and went with something completely new and different with Lost World. Except oops that new different gameplay style was shit so we're going back to that boost thing people actually liked with Forces.

    Except again they're not giving the modern Sonic gameplay style much room to develop because instead of focusing on improving that one style, they're once again adding two other different gameplay styles that they need to focus on developing as well. Creating yet another disjointed game that doesn't have a solid idea of what modern Sonic is because each game either can't focus on just one gameplay style or changes Sonic into something completely different.
     
  12. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I think that pretty much sums it up. They're for the most part going back to what worked (we don't know what that other new gameplay is or how significant it will be). I think they're itching to experiment like they did with Lost World but they know that they can't yet because they have to win people back after 5 years of mediocrity and crap. Granted, Boom RoL wasn't Sonic Team's fault, but it still punched their brand in the gut. It's also another big anniversary year (bigger perhaps, as a 25th anniversary is usually more significant than a 20th), so what better time to dust off lil Sanic again and put him in a game.

    Now if this continues, I'll be a bit more worried. But the way I see it right now is that they're back peddling a bit and for the most part doing what people have been asking of them for years, which is take what they have and work on it more (also darken up the plot a smidge to appease the Adventure fan base). And if this means we get a more refined Generations with less nostalgia then I'm all for it. And maybe this 3rd gameplay will be well received and hit the nail on the head as to what Sonic should be. Or maybe it'll be a dud. Either way at least we know that 66% of this game should be safe. It's a far safer way of experimenting than Lost World was.

    Also, as far as the nostalgia pandering goes, this game seems to pander far less than Generations or even Mania. From what I can tell, Classic Sonic seems to be the beginning and the end of the nostalgia. Maybe Classic Robotnik will be involved too, but there aren't any old levels, there's no Green Hill Zone. It's just the character. A little jarring perhaps but eh, I'm ok with it for now.

    And think of this. They never had the opportunity to tweak their 3D Classic formula for Generations. This could feel much closer to the originals, and think of how fun it'll be if Generations' levels can be ported over to this game, or Sonic 4 Ep 2s. We'd never have that chance if Classic Sonic wasn't given another shot in 3D.

    EDIT: As far as disjointed gameplay goes, I agree with big smile, they sucked far more prior to Unleashed. Even if Forces has 3 gameplay styles, at least 2 of them are Sonic and it's a far cry from the 12 that were in 06 or the 6 that were in Adventure.
     
  13. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    That was last year. :v:
     
  14. big smile

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    TheKazeblade was spot on about a fractured fan base, as I loved the puzzling sections of Colors. They often came just as the boost sections started to become boring. The main problem with Colors was that it's structure was bad, so the powers became very repetitive (until you beat the game and were able to use newer powers on older stages). Despite that, if Colors didn't have the powers and puzzles then I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much.

    I can't see how they could evolve the boost gameplay. Speed is thrilling. But the player soon adapts to the speed and it loses it's thrill. When this happens, the only option is to make it faster. But then the player can't react to the obstacles, which limits what the player can do.

    The classic games understood this well and broke up the speed sections with platforming, so the player never got accustomed to the speed (to the point where the speed lost it's impact). It allowed the speed to stay fresh and act as a reward for platforming.
    Adventure to Unleash didn't understand this. They separated the platforming into other play styles and then focused on making Sonic faster. But then it became too hard to react to the obstacles and the games devolved into bland memory tests (the Mach sections of 06 were really bad for this).

    Honestly, I think Sonic Team would probably have more success evolving the Lost World style or the classic style than finding anyways to make Modern more complete. That's not to say Modern is bad, because I do enjoy it, but I don't think it can stand on it's own (unless you had a small Rush style game). Again, though – fractured fan base – I'm sure there are lots of Modern Fans who can see how Modern can be standalone.
     
  15. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    My point about Colors isn't that it's a bad game, it's that it's Sonic Team trying yet another different thing because they don't know what to do with the franchise. It's just that with Colours they started with a basis they already had.

    And there is more to the boost formula than the thrill of speed. The core of the gameplay style isn't just going fast, it's maintaining that speed throughout the level. There is no challenge in gaining speed in those stages, you only need to press the boost button and you're immediately at top speed. Essentially modern Sonic is a racing game with platforming elements. And like in racing games, the challenge isn't gaining speed, but in keeping up the top speed as much as possible. And the goal is to set the best time possible.

    There is a lot they can change level design-wise and mechanically to change things up. Like have the levels be more open or add parkour moves (but in a less shitty way than Lost World did). Plus, in my opinion the main thing to improve on with boost gameplay I think is making it more player controlled. Right now a lot of modern Sonic level design is scripted paths and events and such. Finishing a level at a good time would be a lot more satisfying if the level was fully player controlled instead.

    Just because you can't think of ways to improve a game doesn't mean it can't be improved.
     
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Sonic CD was a boost game minus the boost :v:
     
  17. Atendega

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    Late response, but that's some certifiably good shit, Kazeblade

    I probably agree with ninety-something percent of that, and it was articulated very well.

    Kudos!
     
  18. Beltway

    Beltway

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    I'm also going to add to your analysis and point out that even Lost World, despite not being a boost game, also suffers from Sonic Team's lack of interest in making a game / playstyle with one coherent focus. You have the parkour mechanics, alternate HA moves (the kick attack and the "charged" / multiple lock-on HA), motion-controlled Wisps, Mario Galaxy-style planetoid levels, underground "tube" levels, NSMB-esque precision platforming 2D levels, and the various one-off gimmick levels spread throughout the game like the snowball level. It all adds up to an inconsistent mess of design; the parkour mechanics aren't really encouraged for most levels, the alternate HA moves aren't really explained for defeating certain enemies and bosses, and the Wisps and gimmick levels only serve to break up the flow/structure of the game's levels. It really wouldn't surprise me if Sonic Forces gets a similar polarizing response, despite actually being based off of a playstyle people actually like instead of starting from scratch.

    With all that said, I agreed with your post, and it is a topic that has been seriously nagging the heck out of me since Forces' unveiling. If Forces was just a "no strings attached" refined boost game, I'd have much more confidence in Sonic Team having learned some real lessons in cultivating a franchise / playstyle and Forces actually surpassing the trend of being an "good enough" or "almost good" Sonic game. But the fact they're still tossing in not just classic Sonic, but a third new gameplay style, as well as adding Wisps into the mix once again, really doesn't tell me that they have any confidence whatsoever in any of the gameplay styles they can use to make a game. They can't just focus on making just a good Sonic game with whatever playstyle they have, they have to throw in other elements / gimmicks to pad out the game and/or use for marketing points.

    Despite being a way smaller team and having less resources to work with, Taxman and co. aren't showing any doubts on what they want Mania to be. They know the game they want to make, and the (new) ideas they're coming up with for that game aren't being implemented in a manner that works against the playstyle they've chosen and/or muddles up the game focus. Compared to Forces, that title looks like a Sonic game that will actually sell itself on gameplay for once, rather than fireworks.
     
  19. RikohZX

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    When it comes to the multitude of playstyles, ideas and stuff they keep slamming into these games because they can't see a single playstyle as being enough to keep people's interest (though let's be fair, a Boost game with nothing but Boost levels would probably be a pain to develop in terms of any sustainable length, it's one of their core worries for the games which is why they keep adding these other things in), I pretty much see it as this:
    Sonic Team wants to have their cake and eat it too, but even though they remember how to make a large cake, they forgot to frost it, to layer it properly, and even fully bake it because they were too focused on getting the size.
     
  20. Aquova

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    Excellent video, very well articulated and you presented your points very well!

    I especially like your comparison to the Mario series, as I was just about to type an analogy to it when it came up in your video. I would actually argue that Sonic had those "pillars" to the series about a decade ago. You had the 3D main series and their mechanics, the handheld 2D adventure in the Advance and later Rush games, the racing games like the Riders series, etc. Around the time Colors came out that really changed though. The 3D games started having high percentages of 2D sections without the mechanics or charm to back them up. The same boost mechanic that works well in 3D doesn't suit a 2D platforming section. Around that time, the 2D handhelds stopped being their own entity as well. They went from being original titles like the Advance and Rush games to simple, less interesting versions of their home console counterparts. One of my hopes for Mania is that Sega realizes there is a demand for entirely 2D games again. I would be very supportive of a few handheld 2D games to be released.

    As far as Forces goes, I like the boost gameplay, and I like what we've seen of Forces. However, I do wonder where we go from here. When I play a Mario game (for example) I feel not only that each game builds upon the previous one, but I get the sense that there is still room to grow. New level design ideas, new gameplay mechanics, etc. The boost series I think is in more trouble. The nature of the games is traveling at high speeds through long levels. While there is still room to improve as far as level designs are concerned, I'm not sure Sonic himself can be improved much, any new moves would either be cumbersome or take away from the core mechanics. Maybe Sonic Team can surprise me with how versatile Modern Sonic can be, but after Generations I remember thinking that the boosting had maybe one or two games left in it. When they moved onto Lost World, I was actually interested at them trying something new (regardless how lackluster it ended up being). Going back to what we had in Generations feels more like they couldn't think of anything better rather than they have a great idea of pushing the envelope. But again, I'm ready to be proven wrong.

    Finally, keep in mind everyone that if we're debating about how the series is fractured with both Classic and Modern Sonic returning, just wait until they announce that 3rd gameplay style!