[Master Emerald]

Sonic 4 isn't launching for me on Steam. Patch arriving now?

[GeneHF]

Dark Sonic, on 30 May 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Wha.... Where did that come from it sounds awesome. Damn you Jun why do they let you make music for classic sounding stuff (I was going to say in general, but I do love Modern GHZ and Modern SSZ in Sonic Generations so I can't hate on him entirely)

One of several Sonic Heroes prototypes. I'll share one more track which will floor everyone.

Yutaka Minobe's original Lost Jungle

[Blivsey]

How did Hataya and Minobe trump Senoue there? That Ocean Palace sounds like a bad YouTube remix of the final version and it really doesn't feel like it'd fit in the level. And Lost Jungle just sounds like a slower version of the final minus a few key instruments, which also doesn't fit with the stage because it was filled with quick action and being launched everywhere and running from a goddamn gator. So no, not floored. Although they're great songs in their own right, I'm glad Senoue improved on them.

This post has been edited by Blivsey: 30 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

[Greg the Cat]

You're... You're fucking kidding me, right, Blivsey? You don't hear the superior quality at all? You don't hear how Lost Jungle actually manages to take on the theme and have beautiful intertwining melodies whereas Senoue's version was streamlined synthy pop garbage?

Gee, I know there's no accounting for taste, but shit.

[Blivsey]

Greg the Cat, on 30 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

You're... You're fucking kidding me, right, Blivsey? You don't hear the superior quality at all?

Nope. Not what I said. I said it no longer fits the level.

Greg the Cat, on 30 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

You don't hear how Lost Jungle actually manages to take on the theme and have beautiful intertwining melodies whereas Senoue's version was streamlined synthy pop garbage?

You don't hear how Lost Jungle actually manages to sit in the back of the room, sound pretty and do nothing whereas Senoue's version gets you into the correct, wild feel for the level?

Greg the Cat, on 30 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Gee, I know there's no accounting for taste, but shit.

You're looking at the music from the "music" side. I'm looking at the "level" side of the music, and the level and the music just didn't match. Don't get me wrong, they're both great and I honestly don't hate Minobe's version (it's got dem melodies, as you said), but it just doesn't feel like THERE'S THAT BLACK FROG OH GOD RUN FROM THAT GATOR, it feels like watch the black frogs and the crocodiles in their natural habitats.

You're acting like I said they're shit. Which they're not, although that Ocean Palace is pushing it.

[steveswede]

Ocean palace funky style mix is superior to the final release but there are some areas of the drums that need cleaning up because they make it sound choppy.

[GeneHF]

I'm just saying it's a shame that Lost Jungle went from that wonderful melodic track to... whatever noise was used in the final.

But now we're straying off Sonic 4 discussion, so...

[Lanzer]

Wow, you guys have basically been talking about what I said ages ago. To be blunt, we can all agree that this isn't Jun's thing! We know what Jun likes to do and this isn't it but SEGA demands to shackle this poor guy down and force him to mimic work he hasn't had real experence with.

If SEGA demands music consistancy in this series, Then he needs help someone to bounce ideas off of so we can get a better sounding soundtrack with what we have to work with.

This post has been edited by Lanzer: 31 May 2012 - 01:18 AM

[Metal Man88]

So, to sum this up, Sonic 4 is what happens when you take the wrong game developers and the wrong composers and have them make a game they don't actually know how to make.

Seems about right. If they called it Sonic Rush 4 or Sonic Advance 4, I don't think they'd get anywhere near the same level of hate. Expectations are just out of whack because you basically have them doing things they aren't accustomed to.

Why can't SEGA hire any of the old composers, anyway? What happened, did all the old Mega Drive people vanish?

[Crasher]

Ocean Palace sounds very empty. I don't know why, it just sounds incomplete. Maybe if you had a bit more instruments at times, it would seem more complete IMO.

Edit: If you excuse me, I'll be running away now.

This post has been edited by Crasher: 31 May 2012 - 10:59 PM

[Blue Blood]

Metal Man88, on 31 May 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Why can't SEGA hire any of the old composers, anyway? What happened, did all the old Mega Drive people vanish?

Well there's Naofumi Hataya, who worked on classic tunes in Generations and the original SCD soundtrack, and then several other artists who workedon Generations that for whatever reason weren't drafted into S4. I think Iizuka is a big fan of Jun's work, and so wanted to get back on track with him when he returned to Sonic games. Iizuka stepped away from his important roles in Sonic games after ShTH until Colours, much the same as Jun did. When Iizuka returned to the forefront it was for S4, and hey presto Jun was back too.

There was an interview somewhere where Jun spoke about the music for Splash Hill 1. Apparently the director of E1 really didn't like the track at all (hooray!) but Jun was very pleased with his work and insisted he didn't change it (boo!). Something about it sounding very fun and perfect for a first stage. I dunno. I always thought SH1 had quite sad sounding music. Sylvania Castle 1 sounds very upbeat, but at the same time it's stupidly unfitting of the stage. S4's music rarely hits the right note.

This post has been edited by Blue Blood: 31 May 2012 - 04:53 AM

[Metal Man88]

Hm, so it's the same sort of logic I see in their continued use of DIMPs. "They were good at (other thing which is completely different), surely they will excel at this other thing!"

Yyyyeah...

The good news is, one way or another, there is only one more Sonic 4 thing left. If they make a Sonic 5 or just abandon it altogether maybe they can put the round peg in the right slot next time.

Since unlike some people, I don't think they are completely unable to do nice things. Classic Sonic tunes and gameplay just isn't one of them, at least not without heavy supervision from the actual people who did it.

It's like, you don't have Neo-Cubists try to make photo-realistic paintings. They share the same basic abilities at the low level, but in the actual high level stuff it just falls flat, what they make is a pale imitation of what someone who is trained in that style properly can do.

[XCubed]

Master Emerald, on 30 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Quote

What is that god awful shit I'm hearing in those remixes? Although I appriciate the fact that the person tried to do extended versions with new melodic themes, but you can't just layer on top of whagt is there.

Classic remixes on Generations disagree with you. (At least the ones by Hataya).

I was just talking about those Sonic 4 remixes you posted. I have all the Generations music on a CD in my car :D

GeneHF, on 30 May 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Hell, here's one example of how Hataya trumped Senoue before the song was neutered in its final revision.

Although this doesn't sound complete and polished, it still sounds great! I do think that those drums were a bit messy to have them going throughout the entire song. I think the final version was more balanced, but would it have killed them to extend the song even more to include these slightly different note in the melody to have variation?

GeneHF, on 30 May 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Dark Sonic, on 30 May 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Wha.... Where did that come from it sounds awesome. Damn you Jun why do they let you make music for classic sounding stuff (I was going to say in general, but I do love Modern GHZ and Modern SSZ in Sonic Generations so I can't hate on him entirely)

One of several Sonic Heroes prototypes. I'll share one more track which will floor everyone.

Yutaka Minobe's original Lost Jungle

I fell absolutely in love. I had a CD with Sonic Heroes music as well and Lost Jungle was a track I skilled quite often. This version actually had direction and not searching for a purpose like the final version.

But back on track to Sonic 4. I think one of my most favorite "WOW" moments was when I saw this screen:



It was a total "OMG Classic Title Card in New Game!" moment. I totally went Squeeee over this. I take it this was after the Original (or Generations?) battle and when the screen goes black then back in color, it's "Present" Day.

This post has been edited by XCubed: 31 May 2012 - 09:08 AM

[Knucklez]

Metal Man88, on 31 May 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

The good news is, one way or another, there is only one more Sonic 4 thing left. If they make a Sonic 5 or just abandon it altogether maybe they can put the round peg in the right slot next time.

Yeah, we need Ep. 3 to follow up Ep. 2's cliffhanger ending. But seriously, Sonic 5? The expectations for that would be through the roof, and only because of it's name. Take out the 5 and cram some random word in the title and you have yourself a good game, guaranteed.

The number 4 made developers lose their minds to where they couldn't help but overthink everything. They got wound up more in trying to replicate the classics' style than just making an original game with its own plot that fit well into the continuity.

Ep. 1 was a complete flop in every way imaginable, especially the story. Hell, it had NO STORY.. not until Ep. 2 and Metal came about. It was all just rehashed levels and bosses, playable in full plasticky 2.5D.

When I played through Ep. 2, it felt like how Sonic 4 should have started. The opening cutscene with Sonic & Tails flying to Sylvania Castle on the Tornado explained how they got there. Splash Hill just had Sonic standing there with no explanation on how he got there and where the fuck Tails was.

Ep. 2 actually made sense of everything and was complete as a game, regardless of its length and flaws.

[Solid SOAP]

I agree with the above. Episode II isn't perfect by any means, but at the very least it felt like a "game" as opposed to a soulless, disgusting mess like Episode I did. Episode II has original less, great graphics, decent level design and controls that actually work and can be fun to play around with. It's no Sonic 4 but it's a solid experience and it actually feels complete, Episode I just feels like a shitty tech demo for an incomplete game.