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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC) Developed by Christian Whitehead, Headcannon and PagodaWest

#5341 User is offline Master Emerald 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:50 PM

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View PostGerbilSoft, on 19 June 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Posted Image


That arrangement is also not really well aligned so it's really uneasy on the eyes for crispness. It does help with 'blending colors' but you can blend colors on 1080p with filters too :P

I really hate non-square pixel grids, I even returned a Phone after I saw the PenTile screen. Really ugly-looking :P

#5342 User is offline sonicblur 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:12 PM

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View PostMaster Emerald, on 19 June 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I really hate non-square pixel grids, I even returned a Phone after I saw the PenTile screen. Really ugly-looking :P

I'm not sure if it's Pentile, but my projector (and apparently this is the case with most projectors) uses a diamond-shaped pattern instead of squares. I think this is one scenario where that type of configuration is preferred and actually does look better, because it doesn't look blocky when you project a 720p game to 90 inches wide. But on a smaller scale (normal displays) I can agree with that.

I probably shouldn't join this argument because there's really no point to it, but I use a 4k IPS LCD gaming monitor. There's enough pixel density that I feel like with the appropriate filters you could perfectly replicate the look of a CRT running at 640x480 if you really want the classic look. But personally I prefer a nice sharp image, which is why I have such a high density display. I think CRT vs. LCD is all personal preference and I don't know why you're arguing about it. We already know that Mania provides a scanline filter if you want it.

#5343 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:19 PM

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View PostUberham, on 19 June 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Try reading Dead Rising 1 text on a CRT. I needed an RGB scart just to make it even half legible.


You are aware there is a difference between a CRT monitor, and an CRT SD Television, right?

View PostMaster Emerald, on 19 June 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I really hate non-square pixel grids, I even returned a Phone after I saw the PenTile screen. Really ugly-looking :P


Pentile subpixel scatter eliminates jail barring. Try displaying a pure red field on a non-pentile arrangement -- you'll get vertical bars of black on the image. That's precisely why pentile subpixel arrangements exist.

#5344 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:22 PM

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Consider these pros of CRTs:
  • We're all used to low-resolution CRT televisions, but CRT monitors can come in much higher resolutions. 2160p is perfectly possible with this tech, just not something commonly seen or cost-effective.
  • CRTs, particularly crappy ones, have a distinct advantage when content is explicitly catered to them, such as pseudo-transparency through dithering. LCDs cannot mimic this without additional filters or shaders.
  • CRTs are capable of rendering proper non-square pixels, a must for consoles such as the SNES which are meant to output at 4:3 but with square pixels would instead output at 8:7.
  • CRTs have better black levels than just about any LCD.
  • CRTs tend to have better response time than LCDs, though LCDs have improved some in the past few years.


Consider these pros of LCDs:
  • LCDs capable of displaying HD and UHD content are commonplace and relatively affordable.
  • LCDs have a naturally crisper image, which is advantageous for some content.
  • The vast majority of LCDs on the market today are 16:9, the same aspect ratio as the vast majority of content, minimizing letterboxing.
  • LCDs are proper flat; no distortion on the corners of even the worst LCD display.
  • LCDs don't generally enforce overscan or require console-level tweaks (which cut into usable actual resolution) to display the entire image.


Given these variables, here's a thought: What if the best display depends on the demands of the content and the preferences of the user? This is why we shouldn't throw around the “O” word.

#5345 User is offline The Growler 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:26 PM

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View PostSlingerland, on 17 June 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

View PostNeo, on 16 June 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

You kids and your Chemical Plant routes.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GBjnwVjA_r0

Hope this one is in Mania or I'm cancelling all my preorders


lol I didn't know this existed until right now
Can you only do this when the water level is down, as it doesn't seem to work for me? I'll have to try it again before the water rises next time.

#5346 User is offline DustArma 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM

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View PostCovarr, on 19 June 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

Consider these pros of CRTs:
  • We're all used to low-resolution CRT televisions, but CRT monitors can come in much higher resolutions. 2160p is perfectly possible with this tech, just not something commonly seen or cost-effective.
  • CRTs, particularly crappy ones, have a distinct advantage when content is explicitly catered to them, such as pseudo-transparency through dithering. LCDs cannot mimic this without additional filters or shaders.
  • CRTs are capable of rendering proper non-square pixels, a must for consoles such as the SNES which are meant to output at 4:3 but with square pixels would instead output at 8:7.
  • CRTs have better black levels than just about any LCD.
  • CRTs tend to have better response time than LCDs, though LCDs have improved some in the past few years.


Consider these pros of LCDs:
  • LCDs capable of displaying HD and UHD content are commonplace and relatively affordable.
  • LCDs have a naturally crisper image, which is advantageous for some content.
  • The vast majority of LCDs on the market today are 16:9, the same aspect ratio as the vast majority of content, minimizing letterboxing.
  • LCDs are proper flat; no distortion on the corners of even the worst LCD display.
  • LCDs don't generally enforce overscan or require console-level tweaks (which cut into usable actual resolution) to display the entire image.


Given these variables, here's a thought: What if the best display depends on the demands of the content and the preferences of the user? This is why we shouldn't throw around the “O” word.


You forgot what is, IMO, the biggest pro of LCDs

More often than not you don't need to crank the refresh rate to 80+Hz in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess. Sure you can get super high resolutions on higher quality CRTss but that comes at the expense of refresh rate.

#5347 User is offline Master Emerald 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:38 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

View PostUberham, on 19 June 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Try reading Dead Rising 1 text on a CRT. I needed an RGB scart just to make it even half legible.


You are aware there is a difference between a CRT monitor, and an CRT SD Television, right?

View PostMaster Emerald, on 19 June 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I really hate non-square pixel grids, I even returned a Phone after I saw the PenTile screen. Really ugly-looking :P


Pentile subpixel scatter eliminates jail barring. Try displaying a pure red field on a non-pentile arrangement -- you'll get vertical bars of black on the image. That's precisely why pentile subpixel arrangements exist.


It was in fact created to reduce the changes in color balance due to the differences in decay of the light emitting subpixels. The image looks quite weird, similar to what an HD CRT monitor would look like.

Quote

Consider these pros of CRTs:
We're all used to low-resolution CRT televisions, but CRT monitors can come in much higher resolutions. 2160p is perfectly possible with this tech, just not something commonly seen or cost-effective.
CRTs, particularly crappy ones, have a distinct advantage when content is explicitly catered to them, such as pseudo-transparency through dithering. LCDs cannot mimic this without additional filters or shaders.
CRTs are capable of rendering proper non-square pixels, a must for consoles such as the SNES which are meant to output at 4:3 but with square pixels would instead output at 8:7.
CRTs have better black levels than just about any LCD.
CRTs tend to have better response time than LCDs, though LCDs have improved some in the past few years.


Consider these pros of LCDs:
LCDs capable of displaying HD and UHD content are commonplace and relatively affordable.
LCDs have a naturally crisper image, which is advantageous for some content.
The vast majority of LCDs on the market today are 16:9, the same aspect ratio as the vast majority of content, minimizing letterboxing.
LCDs are proper flat; no distortion on the corners of even the worst LCD display.
LCDs don't generally enforce overscan or require console-level tweaks (which cut into usable actual resolution) to display the entire image.


Nowadays, the pixels of LCD screens are roughly the size of the subpixels of a CRT so with a good TV and an upscaler you can have the best of both worlds. Really.

Saying an LCD TV can't display non-square retro content is just non-sense. A good 3x pre-scaler and bilinear filter after the deformation will make everything look really sharp.

#5348 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:14 PM

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View PostDustArma, on 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess

Posted Image

#5349 User is offline Crappy Blue Luigi 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:36 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

View PostDustArma, on 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess

hyperbole

Sarcasm is more annoying, by a large margin. At least with hyperbole in these situations you can reasonably assume the person using it is giving their honest feelings, even if it's exaggerated. Sarcasm is mired in disdain and condescension, and serves mostly to put the other person on the defensive, without you actually saying anything of value. Frustrating, more than anything.

Unrelated, yet more on topic: the next couple of months until this game is out are going to be hell, I can just feel it.
This post has been edited by Crappy Blue Luigi: 19 June 2017 - 04:36 PM

#5350 User is offline HedgeHayes 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:37 PM

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Following this train of thoughts, I should play mania in black and white as I had to do for a long time with classic sonic games, I even learnt to flawlessly spot the tone difference between the blue spheres and the red ones when they were just dark grey in my TV. Honestly, the bad quality of old televisions shouldn't be a "retro" trend (pun intended), the best quality of classic sonic graphics wasn't the TV that projected them, even if their design took those tellies into account. Of course, it's still a different way to watch the games, but my B&W TV was different too and I'm not missing it.

#5351 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:45 PM

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View PostCrappy Blue Luigi, on 19 June 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

View PostDustArma, on 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess

hyperbole

Sarcasm is more annoying, by a large margin.

Hyperbole makes me grit my teeth on the internet. Nothing is more annoying online than seething hyperbole, which is the type of hyperbole thrown around most often online. The guy wasn't expressing hyperbolic love for LCDs -- rather, his post was hyperbolic shade at what he doesn't like. It's routed in elitism and holy fuck is it annoying. Nothing can ever be preferred, it's got to be the best. Nothing can be non-preferred, it has to be garbage machines that don't work. No shades of grey.

Not to mention his post wasn't true in the first place. The entire reason VR displays -- which are overwhelmingly OLED -- drive at 90+ hz is because users could still report perceivable flicker below 90 hz. It doesn't matter the display, if you're going below 90 hz, most people will perceive flicker. His post wasn't honest; the vast majority of people on this forum have used CRTs before. Who is he kidding? They aren't flickering head-ache machines to the vast majority of people, and those negligible people who would report flickering and headache may just as well do so for LCDs.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 19 June 2017 - 04:46 PM

#5352 User is offline Kharen 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:46 PM

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Huh. Never tried a Sonic game in black/white. Played Final Fantasy VII that way because I didn't have the right adapters to connect everything correctly. That was an experience.

I wonder if Mania's going to have any filters or shaders we can flip on and off to simulate different televisions. Usually, I'll play an emulator with faint scanlines and a bit of smoothing out to try and imitate an older TV. I saw some pictures of somebody playing Shantae and the Pirate's Curse that way, and it looked beautiful. Made the illusion that there was more detail in-between the pixels.

#5353 User is offline Crappy Blue Luigi 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:47 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostCrappy Blue Luigi, on 19 June 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

View PostDustArma, on 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess

hyperbole

Sarcasm is more annoying, by a large margin.

Hyperbole makes me grit my teeth on the internet. Nothing is more annoying online than seething hyperbole, which is the type of hyperbole thrown around most often online. The guy wasn't expressing hyperbolic love for LCDs -- rather, his post was hyperbolic shade at what he doesn't like. It's routed in elitism and holy fuck is it annoying. Nothing can ever be preferred, it's got to be the best. Nothing can be non-preferred, it has to be garbage machines that don't work. No shades of grey.

Not to mention his post wasn't true in the first place. The entire reason VR displays -- which are overwhelmingly OLED -- drive at 90+ hz is because users could still report perceivable flicker below 90 hz. It doesn't matter the display, if you're going below 90 hz, most people will perceive flicker. His post wasn't honest; the vast majority of people on this forum have used CRTs before. Who is he kidding? They aren't flickering head-ache machines to the vast majority of people, and those negligible people who would report flickering and headache may just as well do so for LCDs.

That's fair. But see, now you're actually saying something of worth by highlighting what he said that you disagreed with and why. I appreciate that!

#5354 User is offline GerbilSoft 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:56 PM

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View PostDustArma, on 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

More often than not you don't need to crank the refresh rate to 80+Hz in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess. Sure you can get super high resolutions on higher quality CRTss but that comes at the expense of refresh rate.

That's entirely dependent on the CRT in question. TV CRTs usually use phosphors that are optimized for 60 Hz refresh (or 50 Hz in PAL regions). PC CRTs usually have faster phosphors for higher refresh rates, which can cause flicker when using lower rates.

On the other end of the spectrum: Really old PC CRTs used slow phosphors to completely eliminate flicker, at the cost of having the phosphors take a while to fade out when they're erased from the screen.

#5355 User is offline DustArma 

Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:55 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostCrappy Blue Luigi, on 19 June 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

View PostCooljerk, on 19 June 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

View PostDustArma, on 19 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

in order to get an image that is not a flickering, headache-inducing mess

hyperbole

Sarcasm is more annoying, by a large margin.

Hyperbole makes me grit my teeth on the internet. Nothing is more annoying online than seething hyperbole, which is the type of hyperbole thrown around most often online. The guy wasn't expressing hyperbolic love for LCDs -- rather, his post was hyperbolic shade at what he doesn't like. It's routed in elitism and holy fuck is it annoying. Nothing can ever be preferred, it's got to be the best. Nothing can be non-preferred, it has to be garbage machines that don't work. No shades of grey.

Not to mention his post wasn't true in the first place. The entire reason VR displays -- which are overwhelmingly OLED -- drive at 90+ hz is because users could still report perceivable flicker below 90 hz. It doesn't matter the display, if you're going below 90 hz, most people will perceive flicker. His post wasn't honest; the vast majority of people on this forum have used CRTs before. Who is he kidding? They aren't flickering head-ache machines to the vast majority of people, and those negligible people who would report flickering and headache may just as well do so for LCDs.


Anything lower than 75Hz on your average CRT screen can cause me some pretty bad migraines, 60 Hz is straight up unusable for me, most LCDs don't have that problem although there are some with noticeable flickering but are still far better.

As interesting as the VR point is, I'm not really strapping screens to my eyes so that's not exactly relevant to me :V

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