[TheInvisibleSun]

mitaknight, on 22 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

iLike80sRock, on 22 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

The game could discourage speed all it wanted to, but what drove me crazy is that the scoring was so tough and a fast time could do NOTHING for you. I have yet to get S ranks on more than one act anywhere but Planet Wisp (which was laid out more for speed) because I still can't find half of the red rings, let alone get them in any sort of timely manner.

.................


Colors, SA2, Heroes, and possibly others (I haven't played any games between Heroes and Colors) place your rank on how well you can A)Smash/Grab everything in sight, B)Stay alive, and C)Make it through the stage as if you're not worried about A and B. I don't know, maybe I'm just not patient enough to deal with the tough rankings in the more strict games.

...

This. This is the point I was trying to make. I do agree with everyone that the games shouldn't be always about goin' at 200 sanics per hour, as that'd get boring after a while. But the problem with colors is that if you do want to speedrun the stage, the game still doesn't give you a good rank without being a total completionist. In that sense, thats why I think it discourages speed. I can also vouch for the point about the inconsistent level design.

What you two aren't understanding is, that the game is not discouraging speed as much as it is encouraging playing the game with complete skill. It is acknowledging that the point of the game is not to only speedrun it, but to finish it skillfully. Not getting a good rank for just speed running the game should show you this. S-rank should mean that you are skilled in all the required facets of the game not just, speedrunning. Also, Red Rings are not required for S-Ranking; you just have to use the Wisp Abilities, defeat enemies, collect rings and generally play well. Many of the S-Ranks are not that hard to get.

This video is an example of someone getting an S-Rank (without Wisp grinding), and finishing the stage with a decent time.



Also note that the player's good time was in fact acknowledged by the game at the Results Screen, ("Personal Best!")

[mitaknight]

TheInvisibleSun, on 22 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

What you two aren't understanding is, that the game is not discouraging speed as much as it is encouraging playing the game with complete skill. It is acknowledging that the point of the game is not to only speedrun it, but to finish it skillfully. Not getting a good rank for just speed running the game should show you this. S-rank should mean that you are skilled in all the required facets of the game not just, speedrunning. Also, Red Rings are not required for S-Ranking; you just have to use the Wisp Abilities, defeat enemies, collect rings and generally play well. Many of the S-Ranks are not that hard to get.

This video is an example of someone getting an S-Rank (without Wisp grinding), and finishing the stage with a decent time.



Also note that the player's good time was in fact acknowledged by the game at the Results Screen, ("Personal Best!")

Fair point. It's just that (to me anyway) some of the older games as well as Unleashed/Gen don't have as much emphasis on the "doing well" part of "going fast" as much as Colors. I guess I'm just not used to Colors' difference???

[TheInvisibleSun]

mitaknight, on 22 April 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

TheInvisibleSun, on 22 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

What you two aren't understanding is, that the game is not discouraging speed as much as it is encouraging playing the game with complete skill. It is acknowledging that the point of the game is not to only speedrun it, but to finish it skillfully. Not getting a good rank for just speed running the game should show you this. S-rank should mean that you are skilled in all the required facets of the game not just, speedrunning. Also, Red Rings are not required for S-Ranking; you just have to use the Wisp Abilities, defeat enemies, collect rings and generally play well. Many of the S-Ranks are not that hard to get.

This video is an example of someone getting an S-Rank (without Wisp grinding), and finishing the stage with a decent time.



Also note that the player's good time was in fact acknowledged by the game at the Results Screen, ("Personal Best!")

Fair point. It's just that (to me anyway) some of the older games as well as Unleashed/Gen don't have as much emphasis on the "doing well" part of "going fast" as much as Colors. I guess I'm just not used to Colors' difference???

Though I can't speak for Generations, the older games do in a way, because they give points for (and thus reward) having lots of rings by the end of the act and defeating enemies. The time bonus isn't the only point bonus emphasized.

[synchronizer]

The problem with Colors that I see is its overemphasis on slow blocky platforming. Lately, Sega has had a difficult time combining speed/racing and precision movement into one entity, which explains the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed, and the hundreds of generic crate/platforms in Colors. At least the situation is not as horrible as that of Bubsy 3D.

This post has been edited by synchronizer: 22 April 2012 - 06:10 PM

[Kreigyr]

synchronizer, on 22 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

The problem with Colors that I see is its overemphasis on slow blocky platforming. Lately, Sega has had a difficult time combining speed/racing and precision movement into one entity, which explains the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed, and the hundreds of generic crate/platforms in Colors. At least the situation is not as horrible as that of Bubsy 3D.

I won't say that Colours shows any manner of innability on Sega's side; it was targeted at a slightly different audience, and I have to say instead I find that it's a beautiful combination of the two series.

Truely, I think there should be less emphasis put on the S-rank requirements, and more on the design and flow of the levels. They almost universally feel like they promote constant velocity over high velocity; consider how fast Sonic is actually moving in comparison to, say, Unleashed, and then to the fact that this gameplay was used with several platforming-intensive sections. While by no means are you going incredibly fast, you're simply always moving.

Now, on the matter of ranking, consider the target audience again, and exactly how said games work. Platforming Mario games work almost entirely on completionism, just as Colours does (and as was mentioned), but regardless it's pretty damned hard to do all that well idling. You need to run, but not necessarily towards the goal.

I can't say I personally like Colours, but I feel, for what it's trying to be, it does it well.

This post has been edited by Kreigyr: 22 April 2012 - 06:31 PM

[SSE]

Kreigyr, on 22 April 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

You need to run, but not necessarily towards the goal.

That was the problem. You actually have to explore, or else you will have to settle with a "B" rank. It usualy takes multiple time, at least in the later levels.

This is much different than Sonic Generations, you HAVE to get a good time to get an A or S. You could collect 200 rings and you would still get an B if you had a bad time. Rings don't do crap in Generations, other than boost your rank by 5% or so.

[Kreigyr]

SSE, on 22 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

That was the problem. You actually have to explore, or else you will have to settle with a "B" rank. It usualy takes multiple time, at least in the later levels.

This is much different than Sonic Generations, you HAVE to get a good time to get an A or S. You could collect 200 rings and you would still get an B if you had a bad time. Rings don't do crap in Generations, other than boost your rank by 5% or so.

That's hardly a problem if it was the goal of the game. Inasmuch that I would have liked this game to be about speed, it's not and won't be no matter how much we speculate.

[The Fralin Boy]

SSE, on 22 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

This is much different than Sonic Generations, you HAVE to get a good time to get an A or S. You could collect 200 rings and you would still get an B if you had a bad time. Rings don't do crap in Generations, other than boost your rank by 5% or so.

This is kinda true, but Generations also compensated the fact that speed is the only thing that matters to get a good rank by making it really easy to get an A or S

[Tanks]

God. Can you imagine this topic back in the 90s? SONIC 2 RUINS THE SPEEDY GAME PLAY OF SONIC 1 LOOK AT MYSTIC CAVE ZONE. HOW DARE THEY MAKE ME THINK BEFORE I ACT.

[SSE]

Kreigyr, on 22 April 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

SSE, on 22 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

That was the problem. You actually have to explore, or else you will have to settle with a "B" rank. It usualy takes multiple time, at least in the later levels.

This is much different than Sonic Generations, you HAVE to get a good time to get an A or S. You could collect 200 rings and you would still get an B if you had a bad time. Rings don't do crap in Generations, other than boost your rank by 5% or so.

That's hardly a problem if it was the goal of the game. Inasmuch that I would have liked this game to be about speed, it's not and won't be no matter how much we speculate.

I wasn't saying it was a problem, I was just saying how different it is from the usual. I love Sonic Generation's speed and ranking system. I also loved the Perfect Bonus. It gives you an extra thing you have to do. It makes you have to complete it in one, quick shot. This also contributes to the speed of the game.

Enough about Generations now.

I think it's fun just to play through Colors as fast as possible, without trying to get an S rank. In Wisp Planet, I would rush through with a fairly good time, yet still get a B or even a C in a few cases.

[synchronizer]

Unleashed had a perfect ranking system, I believe, and I can't imagine anyone getting an S rank unless he never dies and never takes damage. In Generations, a player can get hit over and over, yet he can still "earn" and S. The perfect bonus should have been awarded to those who completed levels perfectly.

This post has been edited by synchronizer: 22 April 2012 - 07:44 PM

[Solid SOAP]

I like the level design of Sonic Colors because not only does it encourage you to beat the level swiftly, but to find the best paths with the best Wisp bonuses, Red Rings, etc.

[synchronizer]

It's just too blocky for my taste. In the megadrive days, developers were required to use repeating tiles/patterns in order to build levels, but to think that this trend continues to prove true in current 3D Sonic games is a little bit dismaying.

Also...

Spoiler

http://www.perfectyo...ge/not-only.htm

Please forgive me, but I've noticed many errors pertaining to the above. It's not personal, and I'm not perfect either.

This post has been edited by synchronizer: 22 April 2012 - 08:30 PM

[Metal Man88]

Tanks, on 22 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

God. Can you imagine this topic back in the 90s? SONIC 2 RUINS THE SPEEDY GAME PLAY OF SONIC 1 LOOK AT MYSTIC CAVE ZONE. HOW DARE THEY MAKE ME THINK BEFORE I ACT.

Yeah, it's pretty clear these people aren't fans of classic Sonic. They just want barren freeways. Well, whatever they want, it's not gonna be their way. Even in the dark days of "SPEED ONLY" they threw in some non speed things.

[iLike80sRock]

I'm not saying that I dislike the fact that it makes you think. There are just sections of this game that are flat out ridiculous in difficulty and just don't feel like a Sonic game. It wouldn't bother me at all if there weren't perfect examples of the game being great at combining the two (Planet Wisp Act 3 and 4 are the ones that really come to mind for me). When I play Starlight Carnival (and to a lesser extent Asteroid Coaster) after playing the more put-together Planet Wisp, it really aggravates me because they're so much more blocky and just generally feel less Sonic-y in my opinion. They just don't flow like the game should, especially the "moving bumpers" and that one Starlight Carnival one where if you mess up with your Green wisp you HAVE to restart.

Another thing: I don't like the way Generations did its ranking much more than I like the Colors system. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. What were '06 and Unleashed's scoring systems like?