[Black Squirrel]

I want, your maps.


So this is currently the best map we have of Chemical Plant Zone from the Sonic 2 Nick Arcade prototype:


(Full resolution - you can almost see where to go)

Any chance of a proper full size one? And indeed, proper full size ones for every map in the prototype? And other prototypes?

Here's one category.

I kind-of feel we should be doing better than one map from the Simon Wai prototype after nearly 20 years, and even this one is missing objects (although it's a lot better than nothing!).


My plan is to get some more thorough game comparisons on the wiki. Perhaps a handy dandy template that can flip between prototype and final maps on the fly. Something better than what we have now, which is nothing at all. I mention this now because I'm in the process of merging some of the old SWS2B/S2B content into the main wiki proper, and we've got a set of small maps that aren't as helpful as they could be.



btw this isn't just Sonic 2 - the layout changes between Sonic 3 and Sonic 3&K aren't documented either. Nor are those early Sonic 3D prototypes where there's all this extra space, or Knuckles in Sonic 2, or anything from the Chaotix or Sonic CD prototypes - there's quite a lot we're missing. Some maps we do have were also shrunk down due to technical reasons back in the day - I don't think those limitations exist anymore (Egg Gauntlet here is 23,000 pixels long and the wiki seems to be coping).

Oh and also maps you might think are redundant, such as Genocide City Zone. It might end up coming out as a big empty rectangle but it's good to see exactly how empty it is. And leftover maps such as Hidden Palace in Sonic 2 final - eeeeeveeerything.

The only missing maps you don't need to worry about are the randomised chunks for Blue Sphere - they're still queued up on the server waiting for a switch to be flicked.

This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 10 April 2018 - 04:09 PM

[Overlord]

My understanding is a lot of these maps are generated from level editors - just how many protos do editors like SonED or SonLVL support?

[Okamikurainya]

Considering Mania's origins and such, would level maps from Retro Sonic, Sonic Nexus or Project Mettrix qualify?

[MainMemory]

I believe SonLVL has support for just about any proto we have, and at least the Sonic 2 Nick Arcade and Simon Wai protos have INI file sets somewhere. However, in order to generate proper maps, we should to include objects, which requires someone to go through every object used in the levels and figure out how to properly represent it in the editor. I think Sonic 2 Final is mostly or entirely done, and Sonic 1 maybe also? IIRC at one point I started replacing some of the maps on the wiki, but then I stopped because there weren't enough object definitions. I could put together a zip of all the levels from S1, S2, and KiS2 if you want, although I'm not sure if we want to include any of the fancy graphics SonLVL uses for invisible debug objects, like pathswappers and invisible blocks.

Someone is currently working on definitions for Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but as you can imagine, that will be a more long-term project, but we'll get there eventually. Sonic CD is technically supported, but you'd have to figure out how to extract the data first, and I don't think anyone's jumping at the opportunity to write object definitions for it. Crackers and Chaotix on the other hand, I have no plans to support, although SonED2 does support Chaotix.

Also I'd kind of like to replace the S3K Special Stage maps with ones that have a proper background, and a bit of space between the spheres.

Looks like we're also missing maps for Mania's Bonus and Special Stages.

This post has been edited by MainMemory: 10 April 2018 - 09:54 PM

[BSonirachi]

I once made maps of all of the layout changes for the Slot Machine Bonus Stage from Sonic 3C 0408 to S&K 0608 for The Cutting Room Floor, and I got 3C 0408's map up on the wiki. I'd be happy to get the rest up on there.

This post has been edited by BSonirachi: 11 April 2018 - 09:22 AM

[Black Squirrel]

Okamikurainya, on 10 April 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

Considering Mania's origins and such, would level maps from Retro Sonic, Sonic Nexus or Project Mettrix qualify?

I'd prefer to prioritise "official" games. We do have a handful of fan game maps but I'm not overly convinced they should be there.


I was thinking last night that we might benefit from having sprite sheets for the 128x128 level chunks or 16x16 tiles, just in case anything changed. I'm not entirely sure we'd ever use them, but I know there's a couple of chunks from Emerald Hill Zone that are only used in the Nick Arcade prototype, and we should be documenting that. Nice to be thorough.

We have templates that can do the necessary cropping - see Puyo Puyo.

This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 11 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

[Glaber]

If you're looking for the 128x128 tiles, The spriter's resource already has a whole bunch.

[Neo]

Glaber, on 11 April 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you're looking for the 128x128 tiles, The spriter's resource already has a whole bunch.

What do you think they dumped them with?

[Black Squirrel]

Glaber, on 11 April 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you're looking for the 128x128 tiles, The spriter's resource already has a whole bunch.

You're not wrong, but the plan would be to have direct rips from the game, laid out in the order in which the chunks are stored, with none of the extra fluff that those sorts of sprite sheets tend to acquire.

If I was making a fan game, those sheets on tSR might be great, but we want what's actually there, not just what's deemed useful to someone.

[Neo]

Black Squirrel, on 11 April 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

You're not wrong, but the plan would be to have direct rips from the game, laid out in the order in which the chunks are stored, with none of the extra fluff that those sorts of sprite sheets tend to acquire.

This is already what they're moving towards -- very slowly, though.

[BSonirachi]

Might I inquire on whether maps with object layouts are appropriate to have? I ask of this since I did upload a few maps from Sonic Advance 3 I managed to rip from the game, complete with object layouts (especially for the Bonus Stages where you have to destroy all the badniks).

This post has been edited by BSonirachi: 11 April 2018 - 05:45 PM

[Black Squirrel]

Neo, on 11 April 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

Black Squirrel, on 11 April 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

You're not wrong, but the plan would be to have direct rips from the game, laid out in the order in which the chunks are stored, with none of the extra fluff that those sorts of sprite sheets tend to acquire.

This is already what they're moving towards -- very slowly, though.

I'm not even sure I'd go so far as saying "moving" - Techo submitted those zip files in 2009/2010, and I don't think anyone else has copied him.

But honestly tSR aren't really at fault for not doing so - they're hosting graphics people actually want in a format they can understand. If you were developing a Sonic fan game or something I can see it being quite a hassle to have to manage 263 images, rather than one big sheet with bits you're likely to actually use.



Those zips are a good fallback but I'd still probably have to acquire or make a tool that stitches them all together into one big image for the sake of the wiki.




And yes those Advance 3 maps are great

[Black Squirrel]

http://info.sonicret..._game_resources

I knew I'd seen something.

So it turns out the GBA/DS Sonic games are already covered. I'll be moving these files shortly so I can coordinate things better, but this is basically what I was thinking for all 2D Sonic games, including prototypes. And 16x16 tilesets (or whatever), in addition to full maps.

[Black Squirrel]

This was the sort-of end goal I was aiming for:

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Nick Arcade prototype)/Comparisons/Marble Zone

It fell a bit flat on its face when I realised I can't really "compare" bits of the layout that aren't in the final, but even though we've moved from having "very little" to "slighty more", it's still a step up.

[Black Squirrel]

My weekend project is "complete":

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Nick Arcade prototype)/Comparisons
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Simon Wai prototype)/Comparisons
Chaotix (prototype 1207)/Comparisons

Posting this partly as encouragement (because I don't want to do everything), but also because the wiki's recent changes page is getting bombarded with text replaces as Hivebrain and myself address long-term problems, so it might be missed.

Add, improve, etc.