[Sodaholic]

W.A.C., on 10 December 2011 - 04:18 AM, said:

The resolution on the GG games was tiny as hell. Just base the resolution as if it were originally designed with the Genesis in mind. If I misinterpreted your post, my bad.

My post had nothing to do with the GG's screen size. It was talking about how the level layouts should be resized to be 1.5 times as big horizontally, and 1.25 times as big vertically. The reason it should be made larger horizontally than vertically is because the 8-bit games had pixels that were slightly wider than they were tall, whereas the 16-bit games had square pixels.

[W.A.C.]

E-122-Psi, on 10 December 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

The length and depth of said levels however makes it hard to get into for just a brief bit of fun like the previous two games. Sonic 1 and 2 have indepth levels but balance them with quick fun speed through ones. Green Hill and Emerald Hill are fun little press right-a-thons while still having a lot of optional extra areas and innovations to add some detail into it. Angel Island however is more intense from the get go. I think this is part of the reason a VS Mode was made of original levels rather than the one player stages like Sonic 2, they wouldn't transfer as well for quick little races.

This is sorta why I prefered SA1's level design over SA2's and Heroes' as well. Shorter levels easier for a quick bit of fun (even if some of them were a bit too brief admitedly). The majority of SA2's and almost all of Heroes' are very complex and take up to five or ten minutes to finish.

It was difficult to have really brief fun with Sonic 1 and 2 unless you used the level select code. I felt S3&K was way more accessible to quick, brief fun solely for the the level select plus the more complexity to the levels themselves just made them more fun to me. Only major downside to the longer levels was the stupid time limit. I always felt the dumb ten mine time limit really hurt exploration for S3&K and Sonic CD. :/ I would love to play those games without a time limit. Then I could explore the hell out of the levels without ever having to worry about getting killed by a clock. I used to get killed by the clock a lot as a kid in Marble Garden Zone. >_< Did anyone ever make hacks that got rid of the time limit, or is the hate for it just too obscure among rom hackers to even care?

Sodaholic, on 10 December 2011 - 12:03 PM, said:

My post had nothing to do with the GG's screen size. It was talking about how the level layouts should be resized to be 1.5 times as big horizontally, and 1.25 times as big vertically. The reason it should be made larger horizontally than vertically is because the 8-bit games had pixels that were slightly wider than they were tall, whereas the 16-bit games had square pixels.

Ah, sorry. I was worried that I might have misinterpreted your post and I did. >_>

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 10 December 2011 - 12:10 PM

[E-122-Psi]

I admit having played the Master System STT hack, the higher resolution gives the game a much better feel of space which fits Sonic's speed. For the game gear everything feels a bit cramped in and makes the game a little clunkier to play.

W.A.C., on 10 December 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:

E-122-Psi, on 10 December 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

The length and depth of said levels however makes it hard to get into for just a brief bit of fun like the previous two games. Sonic 1 and 2 have indepth levels but balance them with quick fun speed through ones. Green Hill and Emerald Hill are fun little press right-a-thons while still having a lot of optional extra areas and innovations to add some detail into it. Angel Island however is more intense from the get go. I think this is part of the reason a VS Mode was made of original levels rather than the one player stages like Sonic 2, they wouldn't transfer as well for quick little races.

This is sorta why I prefered SA1's level design over SA2's and Heroes' as well. Shorter levels easier for a quick bit of fun (even if some of them were a bit too brief admitedly). The majority of SA2's and almost all of Heroes' are very complex and take up to five or ten minutes to finish.

It was difficult to have really brief fun with Sonic 1 and 2 unless you used the level select code. I felt S3&K was way more accessible to quick, brief fun solely for the the level select plus the more complexity to the levels themselves just made them more fun to me. Only major downside to the longer levels was the stupid time limit. I always felt the dumb ten mine time limit really hurt exploration for S3&K and Sonic CD. :/ I would love to play those games without a time limit. Then I could explore the hell out of the levels without ever having to worry about getting killed by a clock. I used to get killed by the clock a lot as a kid in Marble Garden Zone. >_< Did anyone ever make hacks that got rid of the time limit, or is the hate for it just too obscure among rom hackers to even care?

I shamelessly used the Level Select over and over in Sonic 1 and 2 anyway. Add a similar Save Select option to either games and I think they have similar playability.

I dunno I just find it harder to get into really lengthy levels, especially concerning time attack, I'm left too frustrated after the first long go to really try it over again. Then again I'm not big on ridiculously small levels either (Chaos' biggest folly).

Out of this topic, I'm starting to wonder whether something should made out of Masato Nakamura's original soundtracks now. Might make for a cool HD feel to Sonic 1 or 2, similar to Sonic CD.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 10 December 2011 - 12:17 PM

[Sodaholic]

How do you guys think the background layer would look for a 16-bit version of Jungle Zone? Should it just be one scrolling layer of a tiling leaves texture like in Wood Zone, or should it be something else?

[Squier Super Sonic]

Jayextee, on 10 December 2011 - 07:52 AM, said:

A remix of Chaotix should just use that sublime art an those funky tunes and throw the rest away. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Agreed. I'm not a huge fan of the music and I think the art is just too busy but this seems like a better use of resources than making a ton of small changes.

Quote

Now the facts are over, my opinions on that matter: it should play like Sonic 2. No elemental shield clutter, air speed cap present (to torture the speed-runners a bit. Hey, it's okay - they love it), and a good variety of play styles like Sonic 2 offers; as opposed to S3K having levels that uniformly throw at the player speedways and slow-ass platforming in every single level. Very staccato. I know some of y'all like that shit, but I don't. Make it play like Sonic 2.

Personally, I'd rather it play like Sonic 3 where character selection actually makes a difference in mechanics and paths available. As for stuff that plays like Sonic 2, I've always thought Sonic Advance 1 played closer to Sonic 2 than anything else.

E-122-Psi, on 10 December 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

I admit having played the Master System STT hack, the higher resolution gives the game a much better feel of space which fits Sonic's speed. For the game gear everything feels a bit cramped in and makes the game a little clunkier to play.

Which hack are you referring to? Do you have a link?

[edwardok]

http://info.sonicret...ple_Trouble_SMS

"Port" is a better term than "hack". Busts the game wide open, making it significantly easier to play. Er, rather too easy to complete too but it's also easier to appreciate what a well-made game it is now you can see more than a few blocks in front of you.

[Jayextee]

W.A.C., on 10 December 2011 - 08:57 AM, said:

Jayextee, on 10 December 2011 - 07:52 AM, said:

A remix of Chaotix should just use that sublime art an those funky tunes and throw the rest away. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Now the facts are over, my opinions on that matter: it should play like Sonic 2. No elemental shield clutter, air speed cap present (to torture the speed-runners a bit. Hey, it's okay - they love it), and a good variety of play styles like Sonic 2 offers; as opposed to S3K having levels that uniformly throw at the player speedways and slow-ass platforming in every single level. Very staccato. I know some of y'all like that shit, but I don't. Make it play like Sonic 2.

Oh yeah, and if the special stages don't rape the player's eyes, then they are done wrong. We're back to facts here with this one.

What...what...WHAT? Elemental shields didn't clutter the gameplay, it added depth and why on earth is bringing back the speed cap a good idea? When it comes to play styles, S3&K was way more diverse and interesting. Different characters actually did different things which added a lot of replay value. Then when it came to the levels, they were much larger and less straight forward. Just comparing the first act of the fourth zone to both games gives a good idea of how much more well designed the levels were for S3&K. [LINK] [LINK]

Just a matter of opinion, bro. Like that you just link maps without any explanation and tell me to look.

Let's see what a varied palette S3K has, from a gameplay perspective;
- Angel Island Zone mixes slow platforming sections (often around the water) with rollercoaster speedways (often involving loops and tubes that make this like Green Hill Zone ON FIRE).
- Hydrocity Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways (often on the surface of the water, or zig-zag left-and-right sections).
- Marble Garden Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways (most of which involve spinning tops).
- Carnival Night Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways -- and even has gates that 'boost' you through such. And a barrel I'm sick of hearing about.
- Ice Cap Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways (in Act 1, the slopes. In Act 2, they often involve tubes and loops that make this like Green Hill Zone ON ICE).
- Launch Base Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways.
- Mushroom Hill Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways.
- Flying Battery Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways.
- Sandopolis Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways.
- Lava Reef mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways (though in fairness this one does have the least of the latter, I will concede).
- Hidden Palace mixes slow platforming sections a fight with Knuckles with rollercoaster speedways. Or rather, one. Springs still present to aid you on your way.
- Sky Sanctuary mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways.
- Death Egg Zone mixes slow platforming sections with rollercoaster speedways; that are often totally not interactive.

Whereas Sonic 2 lacks the rollercoaster element in Mystic Cave Zone (not counting Sky Chase, since it's a two minute interactive cutscene :3), and has it vastly downplayed in Casino Night, Hill Top, Oil Ocean and Wing Fortress.

I'm not saying that making every zone play with the same rhythm as Chemical Plant Zone is bad. Just saying a remake shouldn't adhere to it, especially if Chaotix' resources were used for, you know, a game (instead of an elastic band simulator or whatever it was in actuality).

me, reiterating said:

I know some of y'all like that shit, but I don't.

As for the 'shield clutter', enjoy your piss-easy bosses.

[E-122-Psi]

Chaotix didn't really suck due to structure so much as they used the near exact same layout for nearly every damn level. You go right, slope up, go left, slope up, and so forth. You're bored of it by the time you've done all the practice levels, let alone the rest of the game. They have the odd unique obstacle but seem rather minor and don't really alter how the stage works for the most part. Platform areas like lava, snowy/oily floors, water, pinball areas and conveyor belt surfaces made for more variety in how you manuevered around levels in the Genesis titles, Chaotix has none.

A shame as a lot of the levels seem perfectly themed for such concepts, Marina Madness could have water, Botonic Base could have mud/quicksand areas, Amazing Arena could have pinball bumpers or carnival balloons and cannons, Speed Slider could have boosters all over the place. Hell a lot of these could just be added to the level layouts as is and make them a lot more fun to play.

Sodaholic, on 10 December 2011 - 03:32 PM, said:

How do you guys think the background layer would look for a 16-bit version of Jungle Zone? Should it just be one scrolling layer of a tiling leaves texture like in Wood Zone, or should it be something else?

The background seemed to have close up bright flowery leaves and faded darker leaves. Perhaps use that style for background and foreground layers.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 10 December 2011 - 08:58 PM

[nesboy43]

As great as it would be to see Sonic CD remastered like how it was for the recent release, I don't see this happening to the other games. The thing is, Sonic CD being based off of strange hardware caused it to have lots of flaws later on like sound effect volume levels, bad music looping, and other weird anomalies that were also present in the Windows 95 game. Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Knuckles were easily able to be ported from the Genesis hardware. Sonic CD also has the soundtrack region issue and was not on these download services previously. Sega wanted to have CD up for download on newer machines but needed to make it more polished and presentable as well. Playing Gems collection recently reminded me of how dated the sound effects and looping techniques are (both being based on newer CD formats when developed). People are perfectly fine with the presentation of 1, 2, and 3K and there doesn't seem to be a need to re-release them anytime soon. The genesis hardware has aged much better than CD hardware, the Genesis ports are already available on PSN (besides 3&K), XBLA, Nintendo DS, and even Wii. While us fans on retro would gladly purchase newer versions of the game, the general consumer would have no need to buy something a second time.

[MDave]

I would be all over a Sonic3K remaster, even if the only new things it brought to the table is widescreen support, time attack mode for the single player stages, online scoreboards, and remixed classic music like what Sonic Generations did. Or is that too much?

[Dark Sonic]

MDave, on 15 December 2011 - 09:14 PM, said:

I would be all over a Sonic3K remaster, even if the only new things it brought to the table is widescreen support, time attack mode for the single player stages, online scoreboards, and remixed classic music like what Sonic Generations did. Or is that too much?

I don't think so. In fact I'm gonna go ahead and ask for more. Personally I'd love to see the 2 player levels redone so that you can play online and have a full screen to yourself. Although this means the art would have to be entirely redone in order to fit with Sonic 3's 1 player sprites and physics.

Hell, fuck it. I'm just gonna say made an HD version if at all possible. Sonic 2 HD is beautiful, if only an official game got the same treatment.

[Eric Wright]

I wish I had the patience to read through this thread, but with all of the "We have to remove this, fix that, change this, rebuild those" comments for Chaotix, I'm not interested in any kind of intelligent discussion... What's wrong with you people? Chaotix was fine as it is, the physics worked perfectly for the game, the level layouts were great... All of these changes are just to compensate for people who couldn't play the game well, and I am disappointed.



I definitely like the idea of rebuilding the 8-bit games into fuller, "16-bit" titles, as long as someone can actually re-arrange the music into GOOD Genesis-esq sequences:

(holy shit, Underground Zone if it were in Streets of Rage? lol)
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iQhcFW_e4q0 by Cinossu apparently :o
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZJD8hpb5CI0

If the levels were rebuilt with, let's say Taxman's engine, you could just get the appropriate graphics tiles to reconstruct the layouts and pretty much call it a day :P they'd need someone to flesh them out a little more and probably tweak some of the difficulty/traps/etc, but I'd love to see remakes of all the portables :I

[Dark Sonic]

^I can play Chaotix just fine. Still don't like it though and would not be sad if it received a significant overhaul.

[Eric Wright]

Yeah, well then the question is -who- would do the overhaul? I'd look toward some of Megamix's staff because they had some really awesome layouts (and a fair number of pitfalls and obstacles that fuck with you just like the old games... you could eventually avoid them or adapt to them in time, but the first few encounters leave you cursing them to no end :P ), but then you'd need to make sure the new layouts were thoroughly tested in regards to different players' styles... A ramp/jump might only be beneficial if someone were coming at it full-speed (chaotix: make your partner hold still then stretch the band and rocket off, or carry your partner, light jump, toss partner forward, immediately press "hold" again so partner jerks you forward, catch partner in mid-air as you pass and carry them while you run at full-speed), but it might offer different insight to someone who might be playing the game slower.

It would take a lot of time and investment to rebuild the game... and I'd almost suggest getting input from some of the original Chaotix team AND S3&K team for good measure.

I dunno, I guess I've just always loved Chaotix, so the notion of really changing anything just rubs me the wrong way :/

This post has been edited by Eric Wright: 16 December 2011 - 03:10 PM

[Dark Sonic]

Honestly I think it'd probably be best just to make a sequel at this point.