Sonic and Sega Retro Message Board: I want your maps - Sonic and Sega Retro Message Board

Jump to content

Hey there, Guest!  (Log In · Register) Help
  • 7 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last ►
    Locked
    Locked Forum

I want your maps

#16 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:05 AM

  • NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev
  • Posts: 4198
  • Joined: 06-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:9
TBH I'm not quite sure what you're asking for in this topic, Black Squirrel. Are you asking for pics with chunk definitions, as your Sonic Advanced link shows? Or are you asking for tile maps themselves? Or level layouts with objects includes? Like MM said, those are generally made with level editors, surly SonED or SonLVL could do either?

However, in the spirit of the topic, I have a utility that can do all this for you, although truthfully I see no reason to not just use SonLVL. Additionally, it wouldn't be too hard with my tool to write a method for checking differences between defifitions. I just need to know specifically what you're looking for.

Edit: and if you are asking for tile sheets, you said you would like them in the order they appear in, in the rom, i.em tile 02 follows tile 01 follows tile 00, etc. What about uncompressed tiles in rom used by pattern load cues for background animations? Those have a weird ordering and reside in different locations than the normal art. If the tile sheet is the a reference to each tile as they appear in vram, then these animated tiles would be left out.

In my program i visualize those tiles in an entirely separate tile map. Additionally, the spots in vram tile sheets where these animated tile patterns are supposed to be copied to appear as holes in the tile sheet.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 16 April 2018 - 08:29 AM

#17 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:42 AM

  • maybe she's born with it
  • Posts: 4457
  • Joined: 27-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northumberland, England
  • Project:maybe it's maybelline
  • Wiki edits:20,569
We want absolutely everything. Maps, chunks, tiles, extra gubbins (maybe even palettes if you can work out how to display them on the wiki) - as much as possible, from as many builds as possible, from as many Sonic games as possible. If the art is stored in different places, the wiki uploads should reflect this.

#18 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:36 PM

  • NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev
  • Posts: 4198
  • Joined: 06-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:9
Let me see if I can contribute some later today, then.

Regarding palettes: would you prefer raw values, or translated into actual colors?

EDIT: Actually, regarding chunks, blocks and tiles, perhaps it would be better if I exported every chunk and block and tile in these games as an individual graphic? When they're arranged in, say, a large image map, it can give the impression that these chunks (and tiles, and such) are stored in a grid, when they are actually a 1 dimensional array. Exporting chunks, blocks, and tiles as individual images would allow the wiki to order the tiles in unique ways.

Would you prefer all the chunks, blocks and tiles in a single image, or separated out? Neither is a problem.

And just checking -- you would like chunk definitions, block definitions, and individual tiles, no?
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 16 April 2018 - 12:44 PM

#19 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:07 PM

  • maybe she's born with it
  • Posts: 4457
  • Joined: 27-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northumberland, England
  • Project:maybe it's maybelline
  • Wiki edits:20,569
Palettes translated into actual colours, so that there's something to look at (it can be a really small image with single pixels - we can handle the rest).

I'd prefer to have one image for all the 128x128 (or 256x256) chunks, one for all the 16x16 blocks and one for the 8x8 tiles.

You have a choice how you want to arrange them in the image - you can put them in a massive long line, or have them in rows of 8/16/32/whatever. We don't need each tile uploaded individually - not only would the upload system mean it would take you years to do, we can use wiki templates to crop the image when necessary, achieving the same effect.


And of course anything else you think is worthwhile documenting. I'd love to get more technical details on the wiki, but it's a bit outside my expertise.
This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 16 April 2018 - 01:08 PM

#20 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:13 PM

  • NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev
  • Posts: 4198
  • Joined: 06-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:9
Cool cool, no problems at all. I was thinking that, if we exported tiles as individual graphics, perhaps we could do some cool stuff like having blocks formed on the fly from actual tiles, and having chunks fromed on the fly from actual blocks... but then that sort of becomes a much more complex project. And there would also have to take into account flags that flip tiles and blocks in individual definitions and such.

#21 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:48 PM

  • maybe she's born with it
  • Posts: 4457
  • Joined: 27-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northumberland, England
  • Project:maybe it's maybelline
  • Wiki edits:20,569

View PostCooljerk, on 16 April 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

Cool cool, no problems at all. I was thinking that, if we exported tiles as individual graphics, perhaps we could do some cool stuff like having blocks formed on the fly from actual tiles, and having chunks fromed on the fly from actual blocks... but then that sort of becomes a much more complex project. And there would also have to take into account flags that flip tiles and blocks in individual definitions and such.

We should be able to do all of this with wiki templates - flipping images is part of the CSS spec these days.

#22 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:56 PM

  • NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev
  • Posts: 4198
  • Joined: 06-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:9

View PostBlack Squirrel, on 16 April 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

View PostCooljerk, on 16 April 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

Cool cool, no problems at all. I was thinking that, if we exported tiles as individual graphics, perhaps we could do some cool stuff like having blocks formed on the fly from actual tiles, and having chunks fromed on the fly from actual blocks... but then that sort of becomes a much more complex project. And there would also have to take into account flags that flip tiles and blocks in individual definitions and such.

We should be able to do all of this with wiki templates - flipping images is part of the CSS spec these days.


There's a bit more going on, though. Certain tiles will use different palettes within the same chunk, for example. Spring Yard Zone has some areas like that.

In the end, that might be a bit too much like building an entire renderer for sonic art through CSS. And who knows, that might be possible, I just next to nothing about building webpages haha.

That actually brings up another question -- regarding tiles and blocks, those don't always have attached palettes to them. Sometimes a tile in a block is intended to use different palettes in different contexts. How should those be handled when exporting these graphics? Export each tile in every combination of palette line per zone?

To clarify, the block definitions are what defines what palettes tiles use. Blocks are just 4 references to tiles as 16 bytes (2 bytes per tile). Those references define the color of the tile. So tiles themselves are colorless. They store indexes to palette entries, but what are in those palette entries vary depending on which palette line the block definition tells them to use.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 16 April 2018 - 02:01 PM

#23 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:28 PM

  • maybe she's born with it
  • Posts: 4457
  • Joined: 27-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northumberland, England
  • Project:maybe it's maybelline
  • Wiki edits:20,569
Right now the main focus is being to compare different builds of a game, so as long as graphics are uploaded in a comparable way, I'm not too worried at this stage. We can always revisit this if we want to do something more clever at a later date.

#24 User is offline MainMemory 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:24 PM

  • Every day's the same old thing... Same place, different day...
  • Posts: 4216
  • Joined: 14-August 09
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Project:SonLVL
  • Wiki edits:1,339
So for full level maps, should objects be included? If so, should extra graphics that illustrate the objects' behavior be included, or only the graphics that appear in the game? Should the underwater portions of the level be rendered with the underwater palette? If a level's art changes partway through (AIZ1 intro, AIZ2 boss), should I stitch two rips together so they appear as a continuous map? Should I include the animated tiles in the map or just leave them as "X" graphics?

Addendum: I could export the object graphics to a separate image, or even multiple images for FG low, FG high, sprite low, sprite high, and the two collision paths, or any other combination of graphics you might need.
This post has been edited by MainMemory: 16 April 2018 - 10:29 PM

#25 User is offline GoldS 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:26 PM

  • Posts: 191
  • Joined: 18-August 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Wiki edits:35
This any good?

#26 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:36 PM

  • NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev
  • Posts: 4198
  • Joined: 06-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:9
I'm just gonna go through level by level and start posting stuff, I'll start with the palettes in Sonic 2. My utility actually populates out 64 palette lines, so I'll just post all 4 banks populated per zone address, unless it's some rotating value, and then i"ll just post that single line.

EDIT: Just realized only the top 3 banks are correct, haha. Forgot about the Sonic & Tails & Objects palettes. Oops. I'll go back and edit these later.

Emerald Hill Zone ($2A22):
Posted Image

Emerald Hill Zone/Aquatic Ruin Zone Rotating Water ($1E7A)
Posted Image

Wood Zone ($2A82)
Posted Image

Wood Zone Rotating Conveyor Belts ($1F1A)
Posted Image

Metropolis Zone ($2A2E)
Posted Image

Metropolis Zone Rotation 1 ($1F2A)
Posted Image

Wing Fortress Zone ($2B42)
Posted Image

Hill Top Zone
Posted Image

Hidden Palace Zone ($2C02)
Posted Image

Oil Ocean Zone
Posted Image

Mystic Cave Zone
Posted Image

Casino Night Zone
Posted Image

Chemical Plant Zone
Posted Image

Death Egg Zone
Posted Image

Aquatic Ruin Zone
Posted Image

Sky Chase Zone
Posted Image
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 16 April 2018 - 10:14 PM

#27 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 17 April 2018 - 11:48 AM

  • maybe she's born with it
  • Posts: 4457
  • Joined: 27-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northumberland, England
  • Project:maybe it's maybelline
  • Wiki edits:20,569

View PostMainMemory, on 16 April 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

So for full level maps, should objects be included? If so, should extra graphics that illustrate the objects' behavior be included, or only the graphics that appear in the game? Should the underwater portions of the level be rendered with the underwater palette? If a level's art changes partway through (AIZ1 intro, AIZ2 boss), should I stitch two rips together so they appear as a continuous map? Should I include the animated tiles in the map or just leave them as "X" graphics?

Addendum: I could export the object graphics to a separate image, or even multiple images for FG low, FG high, sprite low, sprite high, and the two collision paths, or any other combination of graphics you might need.

Objects are good - I wouldn't add anything "new" to illustrate how they work though, because we can cover that elsewhere (or find some way of adding annotations at a later date).

It could definitely be beneficial to have multiple versions of maps, so we have as many bases covered as possible. I'll leave it up to you to work out how you want to display water - our current set of Sonic 2 maps leave it out. For my purposes right now, something similar to how Chemical Plant has been done here would be sufficient, however the more meaningful variations we have (e.g. with or without water at various heights, collisions, palette/graphics changes, etc.), the less work will need to be done at a later stage, if we decide that, actually, yes water is useful (and tbh it probably is).


Angel Island is a pain because it swaps out its graphics. I'd suggest maybe two variants of that one at least. I can't think of any other 2D Sonic game that's quite as radical in this regard - most are just palette swaps, and I could create a million of those fairly quickly from a base set.
This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 17 April 2018 - 11:49 AM

#28 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:23 PM

  • maybe she's born with it
  • Posts: 4457
  • Joined: 27-December 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northumberland, England
  • Project:maybe it's maybelline
  • Wiki edits:20,569

View PostGoldS, on 16 April 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:


Very :)

TCRF have a head start with some of these prototypes, but only because Sonic Retro hasn't adapted to changing tides. We should be more than qualified to offer better Sonic coverage than we are now.

#29 User is offline Hivebrain 

Posted 17 April 2018 - 05:57 PM

  • Posts: 2733
  • Joined: 15-January 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:53.4N, 1.5W
  • Project:HivePal 2.0
  • Wiki edits:6,176
Is there a reason to have palettes uploaded as files? They could be saved as text and displayed with a template.

#30 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:29 AM

  • NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev
  • Posts: 4198
  • Joined: 06-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:9

View PostHivebrain, on 17 April 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

Is there a reason to have palettes uploaded as files? They could be saved as text and displayed with a template.


Well black squirrel said actual visual representations are preferred, rather than raw values.

I know jack shit about web programming since, like, 1996. Are web colors still a thing? Ia that why raw values aren't appreciated?

View PostBlack Squirrel, on 17 April 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:


Angel Island is a pain because it swaps out its graphics. I'd suggest maybe two variants of that one at least. I can't think of any other 2D Sonic game that's quite as radical in this regard - most are just palette swaps, and I could create a million of those fairly quickly from a base set.


All levels in sonic 3 (and knuckles chaotix) do, actually. Its not as much of a pain as you think. The way it works is that levels have multiple tile sheets, a primary sheet with shared tiles used by every act, and a secondary sheet used by specific acts. The primary sheets are used to hide zone transitions, while the secondary sheets change. Angel island zone is a bit more extreme, but the other zones also do the same thing. The solution is to just separate the primary and secondary tiles. They already are separated in the ROM.

  • 7 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last ►
    Locked
    Locked Forum

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users