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The Sonic the Hedgehog Theories Thread Because we've covered the Mania Plus Thread with too much fanon.

#16 User is offline BlackHole 

Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:56 AM

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View PostChainspike, on 10 April 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Except for that carving in Sandopolis Zone act 2 which was likely nothing more than a level artist making the Zone look like an Egyptian Pyramid.

Ah, but if we just deny everything as artistic choice, then nothing can be done here.

Sandopolis has conspicuous human drawings in the background. One has to ponder why, since on the "Human world" of Sonic Adventure the Humans have Echidna pyramids.

Also, another topic of theory could be the Sonic statues seen in Hydrocity. Are they linked to the mural of Super Sonic seen later in Hidden Palace?

#17 User is offline Sir_mihael 

Posted 10 April 2018 - 01:42 PM

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View PostHitlersaurus Christ, on 10 April 2018 - 03:24 AM, said:

View PostChainspike, on 10 April 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the classic games took place on Sonic's world. Humans (except for robotnik) are non-existent in Sonic games up until Sonic Adventure. Except for that carving in Sandopolis Zone act 2 which was likely nothing more than a level artist making the Zone look like an Egyptian Pyramid. They said themselves whilst making Adventure 1, that they wanted Sonic to be in a more realistic world. This was also a main plot point for an entire (non-canon) TV show (Sonic X). Also, it seems like Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania take place in Sonic's world too.

That's certainly what Sega's going with now, but back when Yuji Naka was with Sega someone asked him why there were humans in Adventure but not the originals and he said it's because the previous games took place on islands where there weren't many humans but the Adventures take place on the mainland.

Boy, this one always gets me. I feel like Sega trying to force a seperate 'Human' and 'Sonic' world comes across as a pretty short-sighted attempt to throw the "Dark Age" of Sonic under a bus.

(Edit: Ah fuck it, I wasn't gonna contribute to this thread originally but might as well attempt a definitive micro-essay, sorry for length. No fan theory fluff, just official citations and evidence)

(Double Edit: Although it might seem similar, this isn't related to any 'Classic/Modern' world discussions, for argument's sake, this counts only for the Modern Sonic dimension/timeline/whateveryouwannacallit)

I mean, it's definitely safe to say that Humans are pretty much retired from appearing in Sonic games akin to Jar Jar Binks appearing in a Star Wars movie sequel - But the idea that there was or is a seperate "Human" and "Sonic" world really falls apart once you look at the actual games themselves in any depth.

Going back to their first in-game appearance (not counting Madona, or Man of the Year, but keept those in mind!) we had Sonic Adventure - which introduced Humans to the world, but also established the origins of Angel Island and the Echidna Tribe, not to mention more information on the role of the Master Emerald!
Same Rings, same Loops: It's safe to say, this is the same world as Sonic 3 & Knuckles and it's prequels took place in. This was clearly Sonic Team's intention at the time as well.
To say otherwise would require some serious fanfiction to explain why the Knuckles Clan and Angel Island someohow slipped between the 'Human' and 'Sonic' world.
(I mean, maybe the Train to Mystic Ruins is some kind of spooky dimensional portal I don't know)

Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and 06: we know these all take place in the same world as Adventure 1 through story and location connections referenced throughout. Heck, even up to Generations seems pretty clear in-game that Sonic 1 all the way to Unleashed are part of one world. You'd think that would definitely be the game to bring up a 'Human/Sonic World' concept if there was one.

Now, some things I've heard mentioned as evidence for this: The English script of Sonic Colours and Lost World use the term "Sonic's World" as if to imply either a seperate world, or just the name of the planet. But I stress this is only the English script as this term is not used in the Japanese scripts for either games (cheers Windii).
In other words, Pontaff Pontaff'd it up.

Secondly, some people have taken Sonic Forces' lack of humans as a sign that this is some kind of Animal Only Human-less world. Whilst is might seem on the surface that this isn't the same world that Adventure to Unleashed took place on, the Prequel comics have definite callbacks to Adventure 1 (Pachamacac and Chaos), and Sonic 06, with Shadow and Rouge on some Official Mission, all but using the term GUN.
Secondly, something's on-screen absence isn't generally enough to credit being not part of a world without a proper acknowledgement - else poor Cream the Rabbit's wouldn't be part of the Forces' world either, aw shit.
And, honestly, I can't blame Sonic Team for wanting to retire the regular folk since they get associated with the "worst" of the games. Same with using any terminology from the Adventure series up to 06 - Hence why other terms like 'Chaos Control' is all but a muffled noise under a giant Sega pillow now - it's almost a soft version of the Archie mandate.

To conclude, it would require way more head-scratching and fan theories to seperate which games are part of which world than it would to just confess Humans have been a part of Sonic's World at one point and will probably forever be offscreen. In other words - even if SEGA, Iizuka and Sonic Team say there's a seperate Sonic and Human world, Sonic the Hedgehog (the published game series) completely throws this idea out the window. Similarly, if Iizuka and SEGA's documents said "Eggman is actually half-gerbil and the Rings are made of gingerbread!", it would mean nothing unless it actually made it into a game, or some other official canon material.

In other words, what Yuji Naka said back then still makes sense now and it's what I'll stick with, unless a future Sonic Team game actually addresses and confirms such a concept (er, the human/sonic world one, not the gerbil gingerbread one...)

Unless they mean "Human World" like the Worlds in Mario which are actually more like other countries, in which case ignore everything I've written whoops-

This post has been edited by Sir_mihael: 10 April 2018 - 01:44 PM

#18 User is offline Hitlersaurus Christ 

Posted 10 April 2018 - 01:56 PM

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The “Sonic's world” part of the English scripts is most likely from Pontac/Graff looking at the series bible. Allegedly the official bible that mentions all the two world stuff calls them “Earth” and “Sonic's World,” with the latter being how you're supposed to refer to it in your game.
This post has been edited by Hitlersaurus Christ: 10 April 2018 - 01:57 PM

#19 User is offline SomeSortOfRobot 

Posted 06 September 2018 - 06:57 PM

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Sonic Generations caused Sonic Mania to happen, in a story capacity.

One of the events that happen in Sonic Generations is that Classic Sonic witnesses Modern Sonic do the Homing Attack, but could not do it himself. When Sonic returned to the past, he did so with knowledge of future abilities.

Now, we have two Sonic games that are meant to take place directly after Sonic and Knuckles; Sonic Mania and Sonic 4. I believe that both games happen within different timelines, and that is evident in the abilities Sonic possesses in said games, as well as the events that transpired.

In Sonic Mania, Sonic uses the drop dash, something that has never before been seen in Sonic games until after Generations. I believe when Classic Sonic returned to the past after Generations, he gave up trying to learn the Homing Attack, and possibly created the Drop Dash as a means to set himself apart from his future self.

Another element is Eggman, and his use of the Phantom Ruby. Like with Sonic, it's possible that Dr. Eggman imparted future knowledge onto his younger self during Sonic Generations, or is possibly still communicating with him even afterwards, giving him knowledge of the ruby's existence.

This means that Sonic Mania exists in an alternate universe from Sonic 4, which depicts what would have occurred had Sonic and Eggman not met their future selves.

This is evident in one last tidbit, when Tails first meets Classic Sonic in Sonic Forces. He deliberately refers to him as the "Sonic from another dimension," meaning he already knew the timeline split would occur.
This post has been edited by SomeSortOfRobot: 06 September 2018 - 06:58 PM

#20 User is offline Dr. Mecha 

Posted 22 September 2018 - 09:18 AM

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1. If Webber's comment on SEGA's inhouse bible back at 2015 was true, then the Knuckles' scenario within S3K was non-canon to PostModern Sonic's Timeline; meaning this was the point in which the series branch out between the Classic and Post Modern Sonic.
2. Eggman (along with his great grandson, Eggman Nega) was the only Human to travel between worlds as much as Sonic and Friends; meaning that He's a much bigger threat than everyone believes. It's also the reason why you don't see GUN all over the place (other than the fact that Eggman blew up one of their bases).
3. Sonic and Friends lives in the Fantasy Zone, along with Space Harrier and Opa Opa. This possibly means that Mobius and possibly Planet Freedom was just another set of planets that Sonic and friends visits.
4. Speaking of Mobius, Eggman and Ivo Robotnik aren't the same entity, nor are they're related. This pretty much makes Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine canon to the Classic Sonic Timeline.

#21 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 22 September 2018 - 11:28 AM

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View PostDr. Mecha, on 22 September 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

1. If Webber's comment on SEGA's inhouse bible back at 2015 was true, then the Knuckles' scenario within S3K was non-canon to PostModern Sonic's Timeline;


What comment was this?

#22 User is offline Dr. Mecha 

Posted 22 September 2018 - 02:54 PM

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View PostPengi, on 22 September 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostDr. Mecha, on 22 September 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

1. If Webber's comment on SEGA's inhouse bible back at 2015 was true, then the Knuckles' scenario within S3K was non-canon to PostModern Sonic's Timeline;


What comment was this?

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#23 User is offline BlackHole 

Posted 22 September 2018 - 04:18 PM

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View PostDr. Mecha, on 22 September 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

3. Sonic and Friends lives in the Fantasy Zone, along with Space Harrier and Opa Opa. This possibly means that Mobius and possibly Planet Freedom was just another set of planets that Sonic and friends visits.

...

You're appealing to my love of shared universes between games. Stop that.

#24 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 22 September 2018 - 04:34 PM

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Why would this make Knuckles' scenario in S3&K non-canon?

#25 User is offline Dr. Mecha 

Posted 22 September 2018 - 04:51 PM

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View PostPengi, on 22 September 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Why would this make Knuckles' scenario in S3&K non-canon?

1. Hyper Sonic and Super Emeralds doesn't exist in post modern continuity.
2. Only Sonic, Shadow, and Silver can become Super in said continuity.

Basically, It make sense that all of the Egg Robos got destroyed along with the Death Egg, and that Knuckles doesn't need the chaos emeralds to get the Master Emerald back from Mecha Sonic.

Then again, this was from Iizuka and what he said subject to change sooner than later.

#26 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:26 AM

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Hyper Sonic being non-canon doesn't mean dismissing the entirety of Sonic's scenario, so I don't see why the entirety of Knuckles' scenario should be dismissed either.

#27 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 23 September 2018 - 04:29 AM

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The problem with that is that what Iizuka says should be taken with a grain of salt. My THEORY is that his memory is fuzzy on things thus is prone to making stuff up on the spot. Prime example was when fans asked for them to include the option to play as Classic Sonic in Sonic 4 (as a skin) to which Iizuka said that Classic Sonic was never coming back....Oh hi Sonic Generations one year later.

Likewise, if we are to talk about Hyper Sonic specifically, his latest reason from a SXSW was that he didn't want it to be like a "certain anime" where characters keep getting powered up forms.



The question is at 14 min mark. You'll also find a question here where some kid asks him about the Sonic 3 music which he clearly isn't legally allowed to answer.

#28 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 23 September 2018 - 07:28 AM

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View PostLaughingcow, on 08 April 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

It's worth pointing out that Metal Sonic didn't become an actual character until it was established in Sonic Heroes (which borrows from the Sonic OVA). Before that, he was just one of Robotnik's robots along with Mecha Sonic.


I don't agree with this. Metal Sonic was a main character since his release in Sonic CD. Why?

- Unlike the Mecha Sonic in Sonic & Knuckles, he wasn't just a boss that appeared in one level. He was a cornerstone of the story for Sonic CD. He appears on the boxart of the game. He appears in cutscenes such as when he steals Amy in collision chaos. He appears in every zone as a hollogram. He appears animated in the ending cutscene.

- He appears in Sonic Triple Trouble and gets a cutscene where he chases the player.

- He appears in Sonic the Fighters as a playable character.

- As you mentioned, he appears as the main villian in the Sonic OVA as the same character design.

- He also appears as the same design in Sonic R.

If anything, I'd say that Sonic Heroes was his first appearance that made him a 'different' character. He was obviously more than just one of Robotnik's robots...

#29 User is offline Casshern 

Posted 23 September 2018 - 04:06 PM

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To be honest I've always thought that Sonic was the only one that had a "true" super form even back in the Genesis days.

Knuckles and Tails just flashing white didn't exactly scream "super" to me and I saw them just as gameplay rewards. Also, it doesn't help that Super Sonic is the only one that actual has an effect on the story while Super Knuckles doesn't.
This post has been edited by Casshern: 23 September 2018 - 07:01 PM

#30 User is offline HedgeHayes 

Posted 23 September 2018 - 06:47 PM

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Thing here is that Iizuka seems to randomly choose what's canon and what's not instead of making a decent plot after the classic games. 1, CD, 2, and 3&K are a great base for a setting that culd have been expanded just by using different jewel sets to give new gameplay mechanics to the player, avoid to show the superstuff entirely, and leave the canon unharmed after that. It's not like Hyper Sonic is so different from Super, just a changing and more proper colouring for someone that uses the power of the chaos emeralds, and a double jump skill that you could have nerfed anyway. Super Sonic in Sonic Adventure could have been Hyper and we would never notice the difference since he only fights Chaos in that form, and you could argue the power drain Chaos caused made the emeralds lose their super power permanently and just kept the power they had before the Angel Island campaign. But, you know, they develop games, not stories.

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