[DustArma]

Sonic Team is not yet there but they are getting there, these videos I recorded are a good example of that.

This would have never happened 5 years ago.





*EDIT* Replaced tunnel video with less suckage by me *EDIT*

This post has been edited by DustArma: 15 November 2011 - 12:35 PM

[Kogen]

A barren tunnel and a shortcut they never intended to make. Wow!

This is almost as exciting as a retard's first recognisable word.

Mr. Mash, on 15 November 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

Do you like anything? Do you even know anything about character design?

I like you.

And do I know anything about character design? Sure, why not? Unless I am supposed to have a degree in liking cartoon characters now.

This post has been edited by Kogen: 15 November 2011 - 01:15 PM

[muteKi]

DustArma, on 15 November 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Sonic Team is not yet there but they are getting there, these videos I recorded are a good example of that.

This would have never happened 5 years ago.

I dunno what to make of it. I mean, that empty tunnel wasn't taken directly from Ocean Palace, but that level definitely did have a couple interesting-but-well-hidden secret areas, many just hiding power ups.

Your second video reminds me of the bit in Emerald Coast where the 1-up is hidden and the jump panels are.

[Black Squirrel]

Sonic Team talk utter garbage. Perhaps it doesn't translate well across the pond, perhaps the crazed fans give out a false impression that what they say makes sense, but they need to be quiet.

Sonic needs a break. He doesn't need a "re-design". He doesn't need his face slapped across 43923902 things or be shoved into genres unsuitable for his character, he needs to go away and be brought back when there's some actual demand to see him. Sonic fan forums don't count - the general public could not care less about things like Sonic Unleashed or Sonic Colours - it was just "another Sonic game" and that tends to equate to "mixed quality" in most people's views.

If we look at Mario, we know that from the very start, Shigeru Miyamoto designed a character that was versatile and could be placed in several dozen scenarios without a problem. Like Mickey Mouse. Sonic is not suited to that sort of thing - whereas Mario has no personality to speak of, no interests or character development, Sonic was from the start supposed to be edgy and cool and not a mindless clone. So he's not supposed to be crammed in to cars and given swords or issued instructions that only make sense to mindless clones.

Ironically those roles would have been perfect for Alex Kidd.

Mickey Mouse, the character that's trying to be emulated, has been successful because he's taken big breaks. Disney haven't been making Mickey Mouse cartoons for 90 years - they've moved on, done other things, and then came back when a new idea has arisen. Sonic Team should move on to another franchise and come back when they have a better idea. Maybe they can come up with something that can fit into multiple genres, idk.

[Dark Sonic]

The only "break" this series is ever going to have is if they decide to make 2 games a year instead of 3. Sega's probably not going to back another pony when the one they have has done pretty damn well for 20 years... unless they make a FPS.

[TheKazeblade]

Black Squirrel, on 15 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Sonic needs a break. He doesn't need a "re-design". He doesn't need his face slapped across 43923902 things or be shoved into genres unsuitable for his character, he needs to go away and be brought back when there's some actual demand to see him.

I can fully agree with this. I've voiced this opinion as well, and my reasoning is this: what kept a lot of people foaming at the mouth for more Sonic games every single year was the potential for redemption, a Sonic game worth playing again ever since, arguably, Sonic Heroes. Now that the franchise has gotten to a point where it has two (or three, depending on whether you count Unleashed a success) dang good games, and have their game back so to speak, it's time for Sonic Team to take a break and re-assess what they want to do from here. They have a winning formula, what could they do with it to improve it, refine it, what they can get rid of or add to make it better. That takes time to do it right and in a way Sonic fans will want.

I can't believe this is something I want, but I want at least a solid 3 years with no core Sonic titles. None at all. Olympics, racing, sure whatever (this is one place where I disagree with you, at least when it comes to spin-offs, I don't care what side games Sonic's in because generally I don't get around to playing them) but when it comes to the main series, it needs a breather so Sonic Team continues to care about the franchise as they seem to now after Generations, and having game after game cranked out may cause adverse results.

Plus, I don't want to tire of the series. Each game's release should be an event and something doused in hype and excitement, like every almost every Zelda game has, or, within the franchise, Sonic 2 and 3. Sega should not continue to be like EA and run their franchises into the ground like Guitar Hero was and like Call of Duty is on it's way to. A break would be the best choice not only from a development standpoint, but in the way that the market doesn't again be over-saturated with Sonic games.

From a business standpoint, it's a good long-term strategy, at least in my mind

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 15 November 2011 - 06:46 PM

[Mr. Mash]

Black Squirrel, on 15 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Mickey Mouse, the character that's trying to be emulated, has been successful because he's taken big breaks. Disney haven't been making Mickey Mouse cartoons for 90 years - they've moved on, done other things, and then came back when a new idea has arisen. Sonic Team should move on to another franchise and come back when they have a better idea. Maybe they can come up with something that can fit into multiple genres, idk.

Wasn't that exactly what Oshima and Naka were trying to do waaaay back, like in the mid 90's with different games like NiGHTs?

[Kogen]

Black Squirrel, on 15 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

If we look at Mario, we know that from the very start, Shigeru Miyamoto designed a character that was versatile and could be placed in several dozen scenarios without a problem. Like Mickey Mouse. Sonic is not suited to that sort of thing - whereas Mario has no personality to speak of, no interests or character development, Sonic was from the start supposed to be edgy and cool and not a mindless clone. So he's not supposed to be crammed in to cars and given swords or issued instructions that only make sense to mindless clones.

But,



Why do people think a break is somehow going to improve the quality of Sonic games?

They are not made by the same developers. It does take about 3 years (according to SEGA) to make a big Sonic game. The last one came out in 2008 by those who made Sonic Generations HD.

The original games were all made yearly yet they somehow managed to be great. Time has nothing to do with this. A break after Sonic 3 and Knuckles never made the games better. A break after Sonic Adventure in 1998 never made the games better.

Also anyone foaming at the mouth for another Sonic Heroes deserves whichever disease it is they have.

[Forsaken Moon]

I agree with the article. I agree with the part about alternate playstyles the most though. Though I have already cleared through Super Mario 3D land, I keep playing the levels because they offer depth in both gameplay and depth in the environment. There are a great number of ways to play and I think Sonic games have suffered from not being to implement this type of thing because of the whole speed and coolness of the character. The scripted sequences are cool, but I compare Modern gameplay as a whole to that of a roller coaster at times.

[SteelBrush]

Video gaming seems to be moving towards offering interactive cinematic experiences. It's not something I can say I enjoy that much, which is probably why I retreat back to the older games of my youth. The old games placed you within an enviroment and gave you goal, you were usually free to achieve that goal in any way you wished as long it was within the contraints of the enviroment. Achieving the goal was often entirely optional, although necessary to progress, it wouldn't result in death, you were free to play and explore the given enviroment. Take SOR2, it's levels have only one path and the characters have a limited moveset, yet it is still fun to replay. There are infinite ways of completing a level, even with those limitations. Exploring a simulated, virtual enviroment is fun, regardless of if it is in 2D such as the NES game Uforia, or in 3D such as Bully, both are games that I have spent hours playing, both offer a freely explorable sandbox, where your actions effect the enviroment around you, whether it's throwing a stone or a stink bomb. Scripted events only have one outcome and once you've seen it, it isn't that exciting to see again, Sonic Team need to understand this.

Quote

But we want to reach the widest possible audience. So, you know, we will probably see Sonic going into other genres of games and also seeing Sonic in different media. So we will hopefully be able to have as many people as possible enjoy Sonic.

This quote concerns me as the last time Iizuka said something similar, we got Shadow The Hedgehog the game.

From this interview on the wiki, Iizuka said the following.

Quote

It was very important for us to expand the Sonic franchise with the introduction of Shadow the Hedgehog, and moving forward we want to bring both the old users and the new users [together] to enhance the Sonic franchise.

In order to enlarge the Sonic franchise, we've created this new game. It's not really a reaction to what we've seen. Basically, we're trying to capture a new type of audience, but we're not trying to throw away Sonic. We're trying to expand his world to a more broad user audience.

For the past 14 years, Sonic's been based on a really cool, fast-paced type of character. Moving forward for the future, we don't want to throw that away. We want to keep that, but within keeping that we want to add additional features that will help bring in a new type of audience.

A quality game attracts a bigger audience, it doesn't need Sonic with a sword or gun, that just repluses tha fans the francise already had.

Iizuka also said this in an interview in 2004, so perhaps he's just talking bollocks as usual.

Quote

EGM: Satoru Iwata famously declared at last year's E3 that "Mario will never start shooting hookers". Would you ever make a game where Sonic does that?

Takashi Iizuka: (Laughs) I have no plans for that! And I have a good reason: It's been 12 years since Sonic first game out, and everyone who experienced it back then are now old enough to have their own children. It's a chain of Sonic fans that's forming, and I'd like to keep this chain going. If I changed Sonic to appeal to adults, it would cut the chain right off.

While there is some sense it what he says, creating a "chain" of Sonic fans the spans the generations, it is never going to happen if every five years or so, the design of the character and his playstyle is changed. IMO Iizuka is a serious obstacle to Sonic's success.

[Squier Super Sonic]

Herm the Germ, on 15 November 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

Story-wise, I really wish Shiro Maekawa'd get to write a main game again, he's brought out some awesome scripts for the series, in my opinion.

No way, he's the one responsible for all the melodramatic crap that helped drive the series into the ground. Ken Pontac and Warren Graff's writing has plenty of room for improvement but I think it works because Sonic stories should be light hearted and kind of silly. Not all the jokes are funny but the bad parts induce nothing more than eye rolling, compared to some of the truly cringeworthy stuff Shiro Maekawa has come up with.

Kogen, on 15 November 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Herm the Germ, on 15 November 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

If we're talking character designs, I hope they keep them as they are now, just, nothin' wrong with that.

Nothin' wrong with boring, lifeless shite.

Care to elaborate?

DustArma, on 15 November 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Sonic Team is not yet there but they are getting there, these videos I recorded are a good example of that.

This would have never happened 5 years ago.

*EDIT* Replaced tunnel video with less suckage by me *EDIT*

If you're talking about Seaside Hill, you've gotta include this one.



It's a very clever "coloring outside the lines" speedrun which exploits the infinite boost skill and manages to cheat the system in which players are killed for going outside the designated boundaries.

As for my thoughts on the future of modern Sonic gameplay, they've come very close to achieving what they're after, which not everyone here thinks is optimal but I think they should stick with it. To make the ideal modern 3D Sonic game, all they have to do is pool their resources and have the Generations team work on the 3D segments and the Colors team work of the 2D segments (modern not classic). If they could adjust the engine so that Sonic controls as well in 3D as he does in Generations and as well in 2D as he did in Colors (easier midair adjustments and double jump) it could be the smoothest 3D Sonic yet. The 3D segments would be fast and linear, but branched, and the 2D segments would be slower and branched, but with opportunities for backtracking.

[Black Squirrel]

Mr. Mash, on 15 November 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

Black Squirrel, on 15 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Mickey Mouse, the character that's trying to be emulated, has been successful because he's taken big breaks. Disney haven't been making Mickey Mouse cartoons for 90 years - they've moved on, done other things, and then came back when a new idea has arisen. Sonic Team should move on to another franchise and come back when they have a better idea. Maybe they can come up with something that can fit into multiple genres, idk.

Wasn't that exactly what Oshima and Naka were trying to do waaaay back, like in the mid 90's with different games like NiGHTs?

Indeed it was, but someone clearly told them in 2003-ish that this was a bad idea, because the last truly original game Sonic Team have come up with is Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg. Since then it's been SONIC SONIC SONIC with a bit of Puyo Puyo sprinkled in just because they got the IP.

[Kogen]

Squier Super Sonic, on 16 November 2011 - 12:24 AM, said:

Kogen, on 15 November 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Herm the Germ, on 15 November 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

If we're talking character designs, I hope they keep them as they are now, just, nothin' wrong with that.

Nothin' wrong with boring, lifeless shite.

Care to elaborate?

Sure!

Example:


Sonic is annoying looking and Tails is very dull - both in colour and shape. Each of them are too tall. Their features are not pronounced (Sonic is not spiky enough; Tails is not cute at all). Sonic is stupid and became a 'bro jock'. Tails is a loner (supposed to be an obsessive sidekick) and makes weird statements that are probably poor attempts at jokes.

And while Robotnik is not here, he is too goofy and cartoony. They went overboard with it. His sidekicks are also Rollie Pollie Ollie characters. The Sonic series should not be childish, it should be 'family friendly'. The recent documentary mentioned how Sonic is supposed to be 'mature', but just looks child-like.

[muteKi]

Black Squirrel, on 16 November 2011 - 02:53 AM, said:

Mr. Mash, on 15 November 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

Black Squirrel, on 15 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Mickey Mouse, the character that's trying to be emulated, has been successful because he's taken big breaks. Disney haven't been making Mickey Mouse cartoons for 90 years - they've moved on, done other things, and then came back when a new idea has arisen. Sonic Team should move on to another franchise and come back when they have a better idea. Maybe they can come up with something that can fit into multiple genres, idk.

Wasn't that exactly what Oshima and Naka were trying to do waaaay back, like in the mid 90's with different games like NiGHTs?

Indeed it was, but someone clearly told them in 2003-ish that this was a bad idea, because the last truly original game Sonic Team have come up with is Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg. Since then it's been SONIC SONIC SONIC with a bit of Puyo Puyo sprinkled in just because they got the IP.

Who's been making the more recent Phantasy Star games?

[Krigo]

Black Squirrel, on 16 November 2011 - 02:53 AM, said:

Mr. Mash, on 15 November 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

Black Squirrel, on 15 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Mickey Mouse, the character that's trying to be emulated, has been successful because he's taken big breaks. Disney haven't been making Mickey Mouse cartoons for 90 years - they've moved on, done other things, and then came back when a new idea has arisen. Sonic Team should move on to another franchise and come back when they have a better idea. Maybe they can come up with something that can fit into multiple genres, idk.

Wasn't that exactly what Oshima and Naka were trying to do waaaay back, like in the mid 90's with different games like NiGHTs?

Indeed it was, but someone clearly told them in 2003-ish that this was a bad idea, because the last truly original game Sonic Team have come up with is Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg. Since then it's been SONIC SONIC SONIC with a bit of Puyo Puyo sprinkled in just because they got the IP.

Just going to be leaving these here.

EDIT: It seems Muteki has beaten me :P

This post has been edited by Krigo: 16 November 2011 - 05:09 AM