[Aerosol]

Yes I was going to say just that. SonicDL just sounds like "Sonic title intended for online distribution via downloading" to me.

[Machenstein]

To be fair, I don't know where this story of Sonic 4 not starting off as Sonic 4 came from. I'm just parroting what I've been hearing from others, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it were all true. The only other reason Sonic 4 is the way it is because Sega just doesn't care about the classics... which actually sounds more likely.

dsrb, on 09 April 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I'd like to unread that story about a remade packaged version of Sonic 4, please.

I'm sorry, but I don't want Sonic 4 to forever remain a disjointed series of mediocre download titles. I know the name Sonic 4 doesn't mean anything now, but before it was even Project Needlemouse, it was our dream Sonic game. I will not allow what is currently called Sonic 4 to be the same Sonic 4 that I waited for. I won't let Sega and Dimps sour my vision that easily.

This post has been edited by Machenstein: 09 April 2012 - 05:52 PM

[Aerosol]

Yea because Sonic 5 just sounds retarded. Personally, I'm waiting for Sonic Adventure 3!

What, is that not funny anymore? Oh alright then.

[Machenstein]

And how do you know Sonic 5 won't be every bit as disjointed as Sonic 4? How do you know Sega/Dimps/whatever won't just use the same exact design philosophy they used for Sonic 4?

On second thought, I don't trust Sega with a true Sonic 4 either. I don't trust them because, like the rest of the Japanese games industry nowadays, they just can't do a simple thing without screwing up somewhere. I'll just get my new 2D Sonic games from better vendors like the fan games community.

[Mykonos]

I remember now. There was a Nintendo Power interview with Jun Senoue, where he said originally he was told "We're doing another 2D game!", and I THINK he mentioned they didn't originally know it would be Sonic 4. I've got the issue lying around somewhere and could post the excerpt sometime tomorrow morning if no one can find it online. It doesn't seem to be on Retro under the Interviews section at a glance.

This post has been edited by Mykonos: 09 April 2012 - 07:26 PM

[Dark Sonic]

Machenstein, on 09 April 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

And how do you know Sonic 5 won't be every bit as disjointed as Sonic 4? How do you know Sega/Dimps/whatever won't just use the same exact design philosophy they used for Sonic 4?

Because the Taxman remake of Sonic CD sold beyond their wildest expectations and because they know that everyone loved Generations. Put them together and what do you get? Something very different then Sonic 4 that's for sure.

[Aerosol]

Machenstein, on 09 April 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

And how do you know Sonic 5 won't be every bit as disjointed as Sonic 4? How do you know Sega/Dimps/whatever won't just use the same exact design philosophy they used for Sonic 4?

On second thought, I don't trust Sega with a true Sonic 4 either. I don't trust them because, like the rest of the Japanese games industry nowadays, they just can't do a simple thing without screwing up somewhere. I'll just get my new 2D Sonic games from better vendors like the fan games community.

I was referring to the "Sonic 4 used to be a fan's wet dream" part of your post. Nobody wants a Sonic 5, even if it were going to be an awesome, mainstream title. Because "Sonic 5" sounds stupid.

[Dark Sonic]

AerosolSP, on 09 April 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Machenstein, on 09 April 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

And how do you know Sonic 5 won't be every bit as disjointed as Sonic 4? How do you know Sega/Dimps/whatever won't just use the same exact design philosophy they used for Sonic 4?

On second thought, I don't trust Sega with a true Sonic 4 either. I don't trust them because, like the rest of the Japanese games industry nowadays, they just can't do a simple thing without screwing up somewhere. I'll just get my new 2D Sonic games from better vendors like the fan games community.

I was referring to the "Sonic 4 used to be a fan's wet dream" part of your post. Nobody wants a Sonic 5, even if it were going to be an awesome, mainstream title. Because "Sonic 5" sounds stupid.

Hold your tongue. I'll have a Sonic 5 if it's good. If could be called "Sonic's Good Old fashioned fun time adventure of yore" for all I care. Is if fun? Then it passes.

[Metal Man88]

Violet CLM, on 09 April 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Metal Man88, on 08 April 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

In Launch Base zone, you go from elevators, to floating platforms, to spinning cupola things on poles, to weird overhead high-speed ziplines, to circular pump things that launch you up in the air, to horizontal boosters composed of rubber things that fly out of the ground and hit you. And that doesn't even count the many mini-obstacles thrown around all over the place, the water pipes in act 2, etc.

In that snow level in Sonic 4 E2, you have springs, boosters, oil-ocean like snow slides, bubble chains, and pushing huge snowballs around. That's about it.

This is an unfair comparison. Later zones are almost always more gimmick-filled than earlier zones (contrast, e.g. Green Hill with Scrap Brain); you're comparing the final zone of one game to the first or second of another. The same goes for technological zones vs. nature zones. Let's try comparing White Park to Ice Cap, because they actually share a theme, even if Ice Cap is nearer to the end of its game. I'll also leave out stuff that's in every zone, because that's meaningless.

White Park: Pushing snowballs around, snowboarding sections, snow you have to plow through.
Ice Cap: Pushing ice platforms around, a snowboarding section, platforms that you run really fast onto so that they'll go up, platforms you jump on so they'll send you up.

Advantage Ice Cap, by one... until you remember that we're only familiar with one third of White Park, and the other two acts could have absolutely anything in them.

That said, the Ice Cap gimmicks are by and large better, because they're more interactive. But you were only citing numbers, and the zone you chose doesn't support that very well.

Ice Cap also has the infinite fall zone, platforms which you smash an ice switch so you can fall down, ice-filled loops, piles of snow that get in the way and have to be spindashed through, platforms in the water which sink when you jump on them and also walls of ice that must be spindashed through, which double as platforms you have to shave down to size by spindashing through them.

Sonic 4 Episode 2 doesn't have any more than what was already mentioned, maybe if we want we can also count annoying boss battles and having to use the team-up gimmick, but as you said those suck compared to Sonic 3's gimmicks.

Indeed. Combining what you said with what I said, it only gets more distant—Sonic 4 not only has less gimmicks for comparable levels, but they also are inferior gimmicks.

Let us assume the pattern continues across all the acts of Sonic 4 Ep 2 White Park—again, there is not enough gimmicks, and, they are inferior.

But, hey. If you like Sonic 4, that's your business.

I just don't like it based upon it having less gimmicks and being a sparse wasteland filled with springs and bubble chains.

This post has been edited by Metal Man88: 09 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

[Aerobian-Angel]

Quote

homo-attacking [...] shitty [...] fucking

Hey Jason, you need to let go of your tendency to constantly refer to homosexuals, intercourse, and fecal matter.

Hah, I kid. Anyway, something bothers me about the points you guys have. There's this:

Quote

That's a major problem with Sonic 4. Acts should never focus on anything. That's one of the things that looked really shitty in episode 1 and now episode 2. "This is the torch act, this is the minecart act, this is the card act, now this is the water act", the classics had act specific gimmicks, but they all felt like part of a great, rich organic experience which blends together beautifully from act to act. Did anyone call Launch Base Act 1 "the elevator act" and 2 "the water pipe act"? (I can think of many more examples) exactly!

and this as well:

Metal Man88, on 08 April 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

In Launch Base zone, you go from elevators, to floating platforms, to spinning cupola things on poles, to weird overhead high-speed ziplines, to circular pump things that launch you up in the air, to horizontal boosters composed of rubber things that fly out of the ground and hit you. And that doesn't even count the many mini-obstacles thrown around all over the place, the water pipes in act 2, etc.[...]

[In Sonic 3] you have a densely filled area with lots of little gimmicks vs. a racetrack lined with fewer, more repetitive gimmicks [in Sonic 4]. And each level changes less of the gimmicks than any classic one does.

tl:dr; version: Sonic 4 and its ilk are repetitive and lacking in level gimmickry. They have more than they used to ,but at the rate we're going we'd be up to Episode 10 before they have as many gimmicks per level as Sonic 2. Let alone Sonic 3K, where it goes completely over the top.

For one thing, a LOT of people that I know remember the Classics' stages based off of their experiences with them —not the backdrop itself, hence the gimmicks. I've heard titles such as: "Spinning Tops", "Pink Water", "The One With The Stupid Enemy Placement" (Metropolis, don't ya know?), and many more. For one thing, Sonic 4 did have limitations on its gimmick expansion, but the thing is that Episode 1 went for simple/scarce gimmicks on the grounds that the fans wanted things to be "SIMPLE ON GAMEPLAY LIKE THE CLASSICS!!!!111!!", only to get yelled at for not being "EXPANSIVE ON GAMEPLAY LIKE THE CLASSICS!!!!111!!" Episode 2 is doing a good job at trying to find that ever-fluctuating Happy Medium between the two demands, but contrasting comments as aforementioned are not helping. For one thing, we've only gotten SOLID (not spliced) footage of White Park and Sylvania Castle. For what they're worth, we've gotten ourselves a good amount of stage-specific elements:

Sylvania Castle has foreground/background platforms (something that the Classics NEVER did, mind you), extended loops (don't forget that you noted freaking elevators as one of your points), ruins-shifting switches. White Park has packed snow to burrow through, avalanches (seriously how did you guys forget to list that), snowboarding segments (albeit linear), ice-block smashing, and snowball rolling. The biggest thing to note is that these are all from each Zone's first Act. We ALL know that the levels are far more gimmick-expansive than shown in the demos, yet we judge pieces to wholes. Why? What if I placed the gimmicks of Angel Island Zone against ALL of the gimmicks that Sonic 4's Zones have to offer? "IT'S GOT MORE! IT'S MORE FUN!" (or "IT'S TOO CONVOLUTED! IT SUCKS!" for those supporting simplicity). Hardly the case.

Not to mention the recurring gimmicks like the SAdv3-inspired Co-op mechanics for flying to new heights and barreling through enemies and terrain in a double-spindash (despite it being brokenness, yet silly-looking as well). And while these may be burdened with the recurring theme of Springs, Boosters, and Bubbles as well, they're not NEARLY as plentiful as in Episode 1 (I really just think that the designers wanted it to ALWAYS feel like a speedrun or something), as the game footage shows (contrary to the trailers). What I want to know is why did Dimps insist on so many Boosters when Sonic traversed the first slope in White Park (which was quite steep) just fine? It's like they don't trust their own coding, so they frequently slap on Boosters and springs...

Speaking of gimmick-frequency, Episode 2 appears to be working with different sets of gimmicks per Act. Whereas Sonic 1-3K has the same gimmicks copied-and-pasted across its Acts for the most part (somewhat subverted in some stages of Sonic Knuckles). As far as I am knowledgeable of, the games are either all in the same boat or Sonic 4 constantly renews its gimmicks to keep the game feel fresh throughout the levels. Personally, I like having new challenges per Act when given the choice, as I expect it to have more memorable experiences. Whether or not it actually will, is to be determined when the entire game itself is available to play.

But enough of my drivel on 2 stages, I wonder how the other Acts and levels will pan out like...

[Skyler]

Re: Sonic 4 beginning as Sonic 4, Ken has said in a few Ep1 interviews that they started on the project knowing full well that it would be Sonic 4. I'm calling BS on that one, personally.

This post has been edited by Skyler: 10 April 2012 - 02:31 AM

[Blue Blood]

Skyler, on 10 April 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Re: Sonic 4 beginning as Sonic 4, Ken has said in a few Ep1 interviews that they started on the project knowing full well that it would be Sonic 4. I'm calling BS on that one, personallay.

I know the one solid source we have is Jun Senoue saying he was asked to do the music for a Megadrive-style game but at that point a name hadn't been decided. It was in an interview in a Nintendo Power...

Quote

NP: What was your reaction when you first heard that Sonic the Hedgehog 4 was finally going to happen after more than 15 years?

JS: Takashi Iizuka and I worked together at Sonic Team USA for a long time-from Sonic Adventure through Nights: Journey of Dreams. Before that, the Sonic game either of us ever worked on was Sonic the Hedgehog 3. So we first met...I think it was 17 years ago now. Anyway, he came to me one day out of the blue and told me thaqt we were going to do a classic Sonic game again! At that moment, we didn't know yet if it was going to be called Sonic the Hedgehog 4. But from the very beginning, he wanted me to compose the music in the same style as the classic Genesis games. Both he and I were really excited about the project and had a lot of fun working on it.

So yeah, I'll call bullshit on what Ken said too.

[Aerosol]

Dark Sonic, on 09 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

AerosolSP, on 09 April 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Machenstein, on 09 April 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

And how do you know Sonic 5 won't be every bit as disjointed as Sonic 4? How do you know Sega/Dimps/whatever won't just use the same exact design philosophy they used for Sonic 4?

On second thought, I don't trust Sega with a true Sonic 4 either. I don't trust them because, like the rest of the Japanese games industry nowadays, they just can't do a simple thing without screwing up somewhere. I'll just get my new 2D Sonic games from better vendors like the fan games community.

I was referring to the "Sonic 4 used to be a fan's wet dream" part of your post. Nobody wants a Sonic 5, even if it were going to be an awesome, mainstream title. Because "Sonic 5" sounds stupid.

Hold your tongue. I'll have a Sonic 5 if it's good. If could be called "Sonic's Good Old fashioned fun time adventure of yore" for all I care. Is if fun? Then it passes.

I guess. Sonic 5 sounds stupid too me. There comes a point when numbered sequels just start to sound awkward for me.

[dsrb]

Machenstein, on 09 April 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

dsrb, on 09 April 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I'd like to unread that story about a remade packaged version of Sonic 4, please.

I'm sorry, but I don't want Sonic 4 to forever remain a disjointed series of mediocre download titles. I know the name Sonic 4 doesn't mean anything now, but before it was even Project Needlemouse, it was our dream Sonic game. I will not allow what is currently called Sonic 4 to be the same Sonic 4 that I waited for. I won't let Sega and Dimps sour my vision that easily.

A lot of people don't want these things in theory—but your dramatics here are presented in the future tense as if your opinion can make something happen, so how do you propose to make the change you want; what are you going to do?

They may well not release a physical version, and if they do I bet my ass they won't completely overhaul it.

[Violet CLM]

Metal Man88, on 09 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

But, hey. If you like Sonic 4, that's your business.

I never said anything to that effect.