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S3K Loco

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Tamkis, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. Tamkis

    Tamkis

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    Megaman 2: The Robotnik Wars, Unnamed S3&K hack
    With Sonic 2 Loco mostly finished. and with Megaman 2 being put on hold while Karate Kat does his magic on the hack's disasm, I have decided that for my next hack, I would do something different, something that few people have done. You know what I'm talking about: hacking Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Even with a primitive disasm, this “super-game” does not get enough love <3 when it comes to hacking. So, I thought, why not try my hand at hacking S3K, and do some pioneering hacking? And thus, my S3&K hack was born!

    Although the title and goals of my S3&K hack are subject to change, I am thinking about making a harder S3&K game, since I have learned that making hard levels is my specialty. This hack, called S3K Loco, is similar in concept to Sonic 1 Harder Levels. Like with Sonic Loco 2 and with S1HL, I plan on making this a “complete” hack with “all the works”: modified palettes, new music, some new art, modified level & misc. stage layouts, modified special stages, &c. If possible, I might implement some new code, such as some new monitors, and other surprsies.

    In specifics, here are goals thus far:
    • Modified palettes
    o Mostly level palettes/water palettes
    o Special stage palettes

    • New Music
    o Porting music from various Sonic games (S3D, SC/KC, S2F, et. al.) and non-Sonic games (MJ's Moonwalker, Ristar)

    • New art
    o New Knuckles art (from Knuckel's Chaotix
    o Some other new art (Titlecard mods, SEGA logo)

    • Modified level layouts
    o Mostly modified level layouts for harder levels
    o More Knuckles-only paths
    o Some new/modified chunks
    o 4 new levels
    ? Porting the 2p levels to 1p mode
    ? IF POSSIBLE, going to be an extreme pain in the ass

    • Modified special stages

    • New code
    o New SEGA PCM ("I'm outta here!" from SCD)
    o New monitors
    • Reverse gravity monitor
    ? (Implemented, but not in game yet. See the new monitor with debug mode)

    o New player modes
    ? Red Knuckles alone
    ? Blue Knuckels alone
    ? Red Knuckles and Tails
    ? Blue Knuckles and Tails

    o Modified level events
    ? water level
    ? starting points
    ? Other stuff to make the levels work the way I want

    Pics:
    Slideshow

    Vids:
    Vid1
    Vid2
    Vid3
    Vid4

    Here is Demo V0.02, which is greatly improved from the first version. Implemented are the new player modes, 98% of the music inserted (though, not modified since initial porting), the new SEGA PCM, 2 harder special stages, and improved Angel Island Zone. Listen to the new songs in the level select menu (Debug/Level Select codes are the same as in the vanilla S3&K). There are still many bugs though; I shall concentrate on squishing them in the next release.

    Known bugs (V0.02):
    • (Same bugs as V0.01)
    • Blue Knuckles sprites are garbled in the slots bonus stage. I don't know why...
    • Wrong graphics for new player modes in Save screen (new character sprites haven't been implemented yet)
    • Some buggy music
    • In Blue/Red knuckles & Tails mode in AIZ1, Tails doesn't appear until you die once
    • Sonic sounds like a chipmunk in the SEGA PCM (wrong frequency for PCM file)
    • 2nd Special stage is a WIP (crashes for some unknown reason at a point)
    • (Other possible bugs)


    Known bugs (V0.01)
    • Slot machine starting point needs to be fixed, but the level is at least developed
    • SMB1 scrolling style occurs in AIZ1 until you die/respawn once, or use level select
    • Sonic &/or tails starts at their starting point once in AIZ1 until they die/respawn once
    • PLC for some art in AIZ1 needs to be fixed
    • AIZ2's Knuckles route is underwater if you don't use level select and until you die/respawn once (supposed to be permanent effect)

    Credits:
    Flamewing, for teaching me how to deal with porting music
    Nineko, for 2 songs from Sonineko (LBZ S&KC, ICZ S&KC), and for Blue Balls
    Valleybell, for the Megaman invincibility music from MM2RW
     
  2. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

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    Sonic Classic Hybrid Project
    I'll look forward to this immensely!
     
  3. steveswede

    steveswede

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    Fighting against the Unitary State of Europe
    At 53 seconds, those spikes that you just missed and then hit another set later is really bad level design from the point that you can't see what your falling on to. Stuff like that is in the league of cheap difficulty and creates frustration in my eyes as it's more about luck that skill and I hope there ain't any other sections like that in later levels.

    Also why change Knuckles sprites? The Chaotix sprites are bitch ugly and clashes with the Megadrive art.
     
  4. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

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    O'Fallon Mo
    Sonic 1 Game Gear Disassembly
    This is pretty good. The new layouts look promising, but I haven't had the chance to play the ROM yet. I'll definitely keep watching this thread for updates and when I get the chance to download it, I'll edit my post. ^_^
     
  5. Tamkis

    Tamkis

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    Megaman 2: The Robotnik Wars, Unnamed S3&K hack
    I will remove those two spikes in the next preview build.

    If the "clashing" that you are referring to is the palette color (pinkish), I could always use Knuckles' original palette (reddish).

    I was planning on asking this later, but since you brought it up, which is more preferable: picture A (adapted palette from 32x) or picture B (knuckle's original palette)? I personally prefer B, but what do you guys think I should use?

    A:
    [​IMG]

    B:
    [​IMG]

    One more thing: should I keep Knuckles combi ring or not?
     
  6. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

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    Sonic Classic Hybrid Project
    1. B

    2. Lose it!!
     
  7. Mikel

    Mikel

    Member
    I'd say you should remove the combi ring, unless you are going to include a Sonic Crackers/Knuckles' Chaotix mode for this hack.

    Also, palette B fits with the original S3K Palette for Knuckles.
     
  8. Animemaster

    Animemaster

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    Sonic 1 Revelation
    Personally unless your going to do a 32X styled Sonic and tails I don't think theres no point at all. But thats mainly because I don't like those knuckles chaotix sprites, but its up to you. I like the ideas, but I hope you can implement them. Sometimes putting too many goals could result in not being able to achieve some of them.
     
  9. steveswede

    steveswede

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    Fighting against the Unitary State of Europe
    Fantastic just make sure nothing like that is featured in other levels because from what I've seen the rest of the level is very good.



    It's not just the colour but the whole sprite in general. You are the ultimate decision maker as it is your hack so you do what want but out of the two you've put up, B is better.

    Also yes to getting rid of the ring.
     
  10. Robjoe

    Robjoe

    Member
    Alright, I downloaded this and gave it a whirl. I'm sorry to say, but... It's pretty bad.

    The level design is a mess. Right off the bat, Sonic encounters an area choked with several objects, causing sprite overflow issues and lagging the game (not to mention it's a bad idea in general to just throw objects in the middle of the path when the player is moving fast).

    Moreover, the level itself feels very unprofessional with the massive amount of misused tiles. You should take time to try and find tiles that fit together smoothly, as it can really go a long way to giving the level a good feeling.

    The biggest area in which I'd say this needs work, however, is the difficulty factor. For instance, in the beginning of the burning segment of act 1, you throw the player into near-unavoidable spike traps constantly. Not to mention there's a bottomless pit in the green part of act 1, which is frustrating, especially for the very first level. Really, there's not much here that feels legitimately hard. It's mainly running forward and then getting hit with several cheap shots.

    I realize I'm presenting a lot of criticism here, but this is going to need a lot of work before it's worth publicly unveiling. Take some time to study the level design in the original game, and playtest new segments of your level to make sure they flow together well and look nice. Level design takes some time and practice, but once you get a sense of what makes a level entertaining to play you'll notice immense improvement in your skills. I know I started getting a lot better after I calmed down and approached things slowly and carefully.
     
  11. KazeSenshi

    KazeSenshi

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    For me the B version of Knuckles is better, but if you find someway to "fix" the A version color, for me it's ok. Also if you could put in the act start animation "S3K Harder Levels" I'll love it.

    I'm don't like too traps in the middle of the path, but since this is a "harder levels" version, for me there is no problem. But personally I hate bottomless pits, in my opinion you should avoid it, mainly in the first stages.

    This hacks is looking to be insane, I'm waiting more news about it.
     
  12. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak

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    Sonic 1 Game Gear Disassembly
    Alright so I finally downloaded it and the layouts look fine in the videos, but while playing the game they seem too cheap, especially playing as Knuckles. I had to get hurt by spikes in a few places to progress forward. And when I read that Knux has to fight two bosses I thought "oh cool" but when I saw it's just the same boss on top of the other and destroying only one of them allows the signpost to load, I was kind of disappointed. :\ And like everyone said, definitely get rid of most of the spikes and go with B.
     
  13. Eduardo Knuckles

    Eduardo Knuckles

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    Project S.A.M.G.
    Oh, a Harder Levels version outta the Sonic Harder Project. What a waste of your time...

    At least you admit that we have absolutely nothing to do with this piece of dirty stuff. Unfortunately you failed by choosing a creative name for your project and by naming your project as the same name of our stuff. Having a idea based on our project is cool, but the hack's name and focus shows your complete lack of creativity.
     
  14. Tamkis

    Tamkis

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    Megaman 2: The Robotnik Wars, Unnamed S3&K hack
    Alright, I will admit that I couldn't think of a good title for this hack. I called the hack what it is because I plan (atm) to just make harder levels by just doing basic level modifications of vanilla S3&K levels, as shown in the preview rom. But that could change, depending on how versatile chunks are in the other levels. You're right, I should change the name to something unique; I'll do that for the next update.

    Hmm... I could call it S3&K Loco! In fact, that's what I'm going to call it, as it will be a continuation of S2Loco. Topic title will be updated next time I post updates in this topic, I promise :).
     
  15. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    I like the idea behind the hack, but honestly it's got a long way to go. Also, ditch the Chaotix sprites, they don't fit with the other characters and look really bad (in general, not just in this game)
     
  16. Yuzu

    Yuzu

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    The game right now looks like it's aiming too much towards cheap difficulty rather than actual challenge.

    Of course, that is your decision so I can't make you have the game with a fair challenge.
     
  17. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    Sonic CD's Sound Test Member
    As somebody who is currently hacking S3K (and has been for quite a while), I'd like to say I was a little happy that someone else had decided to hack S3K as well... I'd have liked to say that, I really would. Let's break it down the only way I know how:

    Level layout - Thus far, I see a lot of chunks that don't connect together properly. I know that AIZ1 is a difficult level to modify (Hell, I revised my own new layout for it several times and it is still not perfect) but this needs some more work. If you look at how the original level pieced them together as a basis, you'll be able to get something consistent. AIZ2 is a bit easier to edit but it still has a lot of misplaced chunks, which don't look good.

    Glitches - You have already noted that there a number of glitches that you are aware of and the layout itself gives host to a ton of new ones. I can explain a few; (1) The waterfall platforms don't load the correct art because the art doesn't exist in AIZ1. They were created solely for AIZ2. (2) SMB1 scrolling (and the title card freezing for a few seconds) can only be triggered by a misplaced object with the wrong object ID or you have moved a level specific object that needs to be in a specific place for an event to work. I don't know which but you need to change one of these back. (3) Starting positions that are editable are different from ones that are hard coded from an event. If you want to change those, you'll have to look at the events and see how they work.

    Knuckles - I agree with everyone else; Knuckles' Chaotix sprite doesn't really work and unless you fix the mappings and remake Sonic and Tails in the same way, I can't see it working too well.

    Conclusion: I came in excited, I left disappointed. I don't want to feel like I am an expert in how S3K works (I'm far from it) but after spending a few years working with it (specifically layouts), I know a bit about how layouts are done within S3K's limitations. I feel that if you take some considerable time to create a layout, then it will come out a lot better than a rushed one. That being said, don't feel disheartened by what I have said. Take it as feedback (which I hope it is) and use it to better your work.
     
  18. Robjoe

    Robjoe

    Member
    You're correct that AIZ1's chunk selection is complete and utter garbage. The vanilla level was only ever meant to fly by in about half a minute, and it definitely shows. There's some really basic stuff missing from the original chunk list, such as certain ledges and hills, and walls. It was stuff like this that caused me to call it quits on the game back in about 2006 or so.

    However, it's not 2006 anymore. SonED2 supports Sonic 3 and is completely capable of remapping the 128x128 chunks, as well as the 16x16 blocks and even 8x8 tiles if you really need/want to. Limited chunk selection is no longer an excuse for a messy level.

    Tamkis: If you're serious about working with Sonic 3, then I suggest getting familiar with SonED2's tile editor and utilizing it when you can't find what you want in the chunk list. Once you understand how it works, you can start doing cool stuff and adding variety that AIZ1 never had before:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. muteKi

    muteKi

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    But that's not very hard to do. Go with the Sonic CD sprite sheet for Sonic as appropriate, and it should fit just fine, though you may want to adjust palettes in the process.
     
  20. Tamkis

    Tamkis

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    Megaman 2: The Robotnik Wars, Unnamed S3&K hack
    With the preview release made (although not that great according to popinion), I will be concentratring on music and character art, in that order, before working on any more levels. Below is my proposed playlist for the music, copied from an excel sheet. Since there were 2 free music slots in the standard music banks, I added a separate song for HPZ and for the Special stage results. The songs are mostly from S2F, S3D, SC/KC, and some other games. How do you like the playlist so far? Any comments/suggestions?

    Key:
    S3D=Sonic 3D Blast
    SC=Sonic Crackers
    KC=Knuckles Chaotix
    S2F= Sonic 2 Final
    R=Ristar
    MJM= Michael Jacksons Moonwalker
    SNN= Sonineko (hack)
    MM2RW=Megaman 2: The Robotnik Wars (my own hack)

    Code (Text):
    1.  
    2. Dest    Src
    3. AIZ1    GGZ1 (S3d)
    4. AIZ2    Boss theme (MJM)
    5. HZ1 RRZ1 (S3d)
    6. HZ2 RRZ2 (S3d)
    7. MGZ1    HTZ (S2F)
    8. MGZ2    Billie Jean (MJM)
    9. CNZ1    Speed of Sound (KC)
    10. CNZ2    Childs Song (KC)
    11. FBZ1    Walking (SC)
    12. FBZ2    Electoria (SC)
    13. MHZ1    Shooting Ristar (R
    14. MHZ2    Dancing leaves (R
    15. SZ1 Beat It (MJM)
    16. SZ2 Labyrinth (KC)
    17. LRZ1    VVZ1 (s3d)
    18. LRZ2    VVZ2 (s3d)
    19. SSZ SCZ (S2F)
    20. DEZ1    DEZ (S2F)
    21. DEZ2    GGZ2 (S3D)
    22. Act 1 Boss  Crazy Kings (R
    23. Act 2 Boss  Boss (S3d)
    24. Doomsday    Greedy Game (Ristr)
    25. Rolling Jump Bonus Stage    Busy Flare (R
    26. Special Stage   Special Stage (s3d)
    27. Slot Machine Bonus Stage    Nice meeting you (KC)
    28. Knuckles' Theme Surprise (KC)
    29. Title   S3D Title
    30. 1UP 1up (S2F)
    31. Chaos Emerald   n/a
    32. ICZ1    ICZ S3&KC (SNN)
    33. ICZ2    DDZ1 (s3d)
    34. LBZ1    LBZ S3&KC (SNN)
    35. LBZ2    Hyper-Hyper (SC)
    36. Gum Ball Machine Bonus Stage    2 player results (s2F)
    37. Azure Lake  Door into sumr (KC)
    38. Balloon Park    Moonrise (SC)
    39. Desert Palace   Combination (KC)
    40. Chrome Gadget   Evening star (SC)
    41. Endless Mine    MCZ 2p (S2F)
    42. *HPZ    HPZ (S2F)
    43. Competition Menu    Chaotic World (KC)
    44. *S3 countdown/Continue  From Party to Prty (KC)
    45. Game/Time Over  Mechanical Dance (KC)
    46. *Special Stage clr  Overture (KC)
    47. Act clr Act clear (KC)
    48. Invincible  Invin MMWW (mm2rw)
    49. Menu    Take off (KC)
    50. Final Boss  Oriental Legend (KC)
    51. S3&K credits    n/a
    52. S3&K outro      n/a
    53.