don't click here

Yet Another Fucking Hoax?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Quickman, Nov 9, 2006.

  1. Quickman

    Quickman

    be attitude for gains Tech Member
    5,595
    18
    18
    :x
    omg porjcet
    In a Skype conversation Qjimbo, Shade and I noticed a number of apparent discrepancies regarding the nature and content of the recent ROM dump provided by drx. To remain as fair as is humanly possible, we compiled evidence in favour of and against the case for the veracity of the ROM being a valid prototype.

    THE CASE FOR - "PROTOTYPE"
    The most important argument in favour of this dump being a prototype is the label - it's holographic, so it would be difficult to produce and thus would make it more likely to be sent from SEGA who DO in theory have the resources to produce holograms.

    Another argument is that drx has previously admitted he is not very proficient at producing level layouts - this would imply that he does not have the skill to produce hoax levels of such quality as to fit perfectly with the demo sequences.

    The final argument is that a hoax produced by drx would make more sense and be generally more coherent compared to the dump we have, which is full of leftover code and crashes.

    Other evidence is Tails' end-of-level sign which appears to be new art.

    THE CASE AGAINST - "HOAX"
    The dump we have does not seem to conform to any predicted development cycle or progression; as we commented, it seems iffy in numerous respects.

    drx is a good coder, so it would not be fantastically difficult for him to edit some code from a disassembly of Sonic 1 or Sonic 2 (both of which have disassemblies made, it is worth noting) with some convincing-looking labels backed up by a phony symbol table.

    The sudden $1000 deus-ex-machina is also suspicious.

    Isn't the incredible similarity to Nick Arcade a little bit convenient?

    Then there's the fact the level select code was found near instantly, which is iffy because the UDDDDU code isn't Sonic 1 OR Sonic 2 in origin.

    The monitor roulette seems arbitrary and oddly placed; it DOES work as an explanation for the Tails box, but this seems a little too convenient and opens up unpleasant questions like "what was HPZ doing in development when the majority of the physics are still rooted in Sonic 1 mentality?".

    The placement of EHZ is puzzling - why did GHZ not get overwritten? Why did they move EHZ from SLZ's place to the first level entry.

    drx's lack of proficiency with level layouts could explain why HPZ is so similar to in the Wai beta - he hasn't changed it. Perhaps the poor quality of all the level layouts is because he's not very good at making them!

    WHERE DO WE STAND ON THE MATTER?
    We're undecided - we'd like it to be real, but we feel it's scientifically expedient to question everything even if it turns out to be false worry. Better safe than sorry.
     
  2. Tweaker

    Tweaker

    Banned
    12,387
    2
    0
    That was actually the same code from the Wai beta... I'm sure he just tried it offhand, and it worked.

    The other code combinations are also the same as Sonic 1's - just using UDDDDU instead of UDLR.

    GHZ was a test level for new engine tests, for all intents and purposes. It's safe to assume, however, it was no longer being used as a test dummy after the new collision system was made, since the collision data is byte-for-byte identical to that of its collision in Sonic 1.

    The leftover code is not uncommon in games - see Super Princess Peach (or so Heran claims).

    The crashes are mostly due to leftover Sonic 1 DSR events that simply weren't removed yet. This is also why you can go to "Final Zone" by scrolling up in LZ4 (garbled CPZ tiles or whatever).

    Isn't that a bit far-fetched, though? Anything can be faked - it doesn't mean it was.

    Sure, but remember that a majority of people were expecting a later beta, rather than an earlier one. This was a surprise for all of us.

    ...okay, that's just stupid. You seem to be clutching at straws there.

    What do you mean? It was $1500. And the guy selling it needed money badly - we wouldn't have got it otherwise.

    The art was probably just a test of style, to see if it would work out. This kind of thing is usually changed a lot during the development cycle - see Sonic CD 510 for examples - the end sign, though similar to the final design, is less intimidating than the final design.

    I had my own doubts as well, but the level to which this ROM goes to represent a prototype is insane. drx had neither the time nor the skill to pull this off, contrary to popular belief. His programming is far messier than this, to be quite frank. And the uncompiled source in the ROM is way too real to be faked - I've never seen any person in the homebrew/hacking scene code with such depth.

    I think people are just skeptical because drx is now a "known hoaxer" due to the X-Treme fiasco. Yet, he's released many legit protos before, where we've also pulled unused stuff from. How is this proto any less real than, say, Sonic 3D? I have no reason to doubt this is legit - not anymore, anyway.
     
  3. Sazpaimon

    Sazpaimon

    Tech Member
    1,208
    0
    16
    you forgot to add that Redeye knows who the seller is in regards to as to why this beta is real.

    It fits to me. Here's how I think the development cycle went:
    Sonic 2 Alpha - Sonic 2 Engine tests with only Sonic 1 Levels
    Sonic 2 Pre-Beta - Sonic 1 levels slowly removed for Sonic 2 levels
    Sonic 2 drx Beta - GHZ remains only as a test level to test 2P mode, however EHZ remains the more used test and promotion level, hence its completeness
    Sonic 2 post-drx beta - Level slots added and Dreams Come True music added into the game
    Sonic 2 Simon beta - More levels for sonic 2 added to fill slots, some slots still remain empty placeholders

    Seems to fit perfectly to me. Of course I'm just speculating how the inbetween builds would go, but it seems to make sense logically.

    The hollogram label would be a good indication that it was used for nick arcade for promotional, demonstration and identification purposes. Sega wouldnt release two different minor code releases to a game show AND a magazine. The way I see it, there are a maximum of 4 major betas of sonic 2 (by this I mean they were put into pretty carts). The rest remain on board kits. Most likely this is the same code that got shipped off to x amount of people.

    The UDDDDU code is known since Wai's beta to be a level select code. Also CCUDDDDU is the debug code in Sonic 2 Wai beta. UDDDDU is the base for all the codes in sonic 2 beta, much like UDLR is the base for all codes in sonic 1

    This doesn't make a lick of, sense, so I'll move on...

    Ask sega, the nick arcade episode also has SLZ music, notifying that that build also was in SLZ's slot


    HPZ has never changed in any Sonic 2 build. It has the exact same layout in sonic 2 final as it does in the beta.

    I know a few people that actually did donate large sums for this beta, that's where most of the money came from I bet.
     
  4. Vangar

    Vangar

    Member
    3,654
    62
    28
    I had a strong feeling of hoax when I play-tested... and I still do. But I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here. Lets hope it isn't a hoax.
     
  5. MK

    MK

    Hacker Oldbie
    310
    0
    0
    New England, USA
    Secret :o o:
    I personally doubt it. Look at the "big" hoax:

    To make Sonic X-treme:

    drx makes a small 3 (or 4?) line cue file. He makes megabytes upon megabytes of garbage. He uploades it. Fools TONS of people, with little to no effort. He got me, it was fucking hilarious.

    To make the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 prototype:

    Disassemble Sonic 1, Sonic 2, and Wai's beta. Add Sonic 2's engine. Redesign Chemical Plant. Add lots of graphics. Remove lots of craphics. Move layouts around in uninteligible ways (GHZ1 in HPZ2, LBZ3 in HPZ3?). Recreate Nick Arcade's representation exactly, including the demos. Satisfy a few people.

    To me, it seems highly unlikely this is a hoax. It would really make no sense if it was. Far too much work with not much of a result.
     
  6. Vangar

    Vangar

    Member
    3,654
    62
    28
    Yes, the demo video is very strong fact, but one could create a suitable level layout to match the already recoded one in our beta. But, what about those new unused tiles.
     
  7. djdocsonic

    djdocsonic

    Testing YOUR Hacks Since 2005... Member
    374
    0
    0
    Emerald Hill Zone
    Looking for a Rom Hack to Test.
    I think its genuine, it would be far too much hard work to fake this surely? Also when I first heard drx was trying to buy a prototype I expected it to be a later one e.g. the one shown on the SEGA SOLID GOLD GUIDE (1993) which showed the 1 and 2 Player VS options on the title screen. The fact it appears to be the infamous Nick Arcade build makes it all the more impressive! Good work drx. Equally if he has somehow managed to manufacture this then again good Hoax.

    DJ
     
  8. drx

    drx

    mfw Researcher
    2,254
    350
    63
    :rolleyes:
    Funky topic :P

    You know - the first thing when I dumped the ROM, I opened it in a hex editor to see what the level select code is - I wanted to see other levels, not only EHZ :P

    Also, I think I mentioned it somewhere, but one of the very first things I thought when I first played the game was 'jeez people are gonna accuse me of hoax :P'.

    Oh, and you forgot I deleted Wetflames beatiful essays :(

    PS. If you want to be a good detective, find a motive for me to do such an elaborate hoax AND take money for it. I mean, if I was to make a hoax, I wouldnt rip people off for $1500 :P
     
  9. SMTP

    SMTP

    Tech Member
    A quick way to prove its real is to take pictures of the game on your Genesis/TV. =P
     
  10. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic

    Also known as RHS Tech Member
    1,587
    10
    18
    United Kingdom
    YouTuber
    We have a winner!
     
  11. StephenUK

    StephenUK

    Liquor in the front, poker in the rear Tech Member
    1,678
    0
    16
    Manchester, UK
    Quackshot Disassembly
    Not necessarily, coz he could be running it off some kind of dev cart and still play it on hardware. When I first saw it I thought it was a hoax, but after digging into it properly I'm not so sure it is now. I think this is legit. It's still a bit disappointing that it wasn't a later beta though. I wanted to see what this alternate DEZ art was supposed to be like.
     
  12. SMTP

    SMTP

    Tech Member
    Well, assuming Drx does'nt have a dev cart. =P
     
  13. Verse

    Verse

    Posts once a year. Oldbie
    323
    0
    0
    Pomona, CA , USA
    Freedom Planet Soundtrack
    I'm undecided at this point. But if it is a hoax, props to DRX for actually trying this time. At least he made a lot of people happy in the process. I think also, that it if it is a hoax, it's gone too far for him to turn back now. Unfortunately he also ripped off a lot of people for cash if it's a hoax. I hope it ain't : (
     
  14. drx

    drx

    mfw Researcher
    2,254
    350
    63
    :rolleyes:
    In fact, it's quite easy to burn a game on EPROMs and stick them on an EPROM board like this one, so it wouldn't be a big problem for me to hoax that too.

    It's pretty tough to find a 100% sure proof that everyone'll believe. I mean, even the Simon's build could've been a hack, following that logic (and don't even tell me there weren't good hackers in the 90s, cause there were).

    For all those that still don't believe - for a second, 'pretend' you think it's legit. Now, tell me, what sort of '100%' evidence would you have to defend your point of view?

    PS. This topic makes me happy :( You must really think I'm a good hoaxer & hacker :P Except that thing about ripping you lot off for $1500, that's something I'd never do, but heh.
     
  15. Cinossu

    Cinossu

    Administrator
    2,832
    44
    28
    London, UK
    Sonic the Hedgehog Extended Edition
    A little thing I just realised: HPZ's zone slot in this.

    Okay, time for some comparisons..

    In the wai prototype, HPZ is in slot 08. In Sonic 2, and the wai prototype, each zone slot consists of two acts.

    In the drx prototype, HPZ is in slot 04. In Sonic 1, and the drx prototype, each zone slot consists of four acts. (Yes, four. The fourth is generally unused, except for LZ act 4.)

    Slot 04, in Sonic 1, is Spring Yard. Now, split up the Sonic 1 zone slots into Sonic 2-style..

    Slot 00:
    GHZ 1
    GHZ 2

    Slot 01:
    GHZ 3
    GHZ 4

    Slot 02:
    LZ 1
    LZ 2

    Slot 03:
    LZ 3
    LZ 4

    Slot 04:
    MZ 1
    MZ 2

    Slot 05:
    MZ 3
    MZ 4

    Slot 06:
    SLZ 1
    SLZ 2

    Slot 07:
    SLZ 3
    SLZ 4

    Slot 08:
    SYZ 1
    SYZ 2


    .. zOMG! Spring Yard Zone acts 1 and 2 are now zone slot 08! Spring Yard acts 1 and 2 are replaced with HPZ acts 1 (and 2, eventually). Offset indexes are changed appropriately so that the zones are only two acts in size but the indexes themselves aren't altered. This also explains the gaps in Zones 01, 02 and 03, as "GHZ" acts 3 and 4, and LZ 1, 2, 3 and 4 are unused.
     
  16. Cinossu

    Cinossu

    Administrator
    2,832
    44
    28
    London, UK
    Sonic the Hedgehog Extended Edition
    Code (Text):
    1.         Sonic 1     drx Proto   wai Proto   Sonic 2
    2.  
    3. Slot 00:
    4.         GHZ 1       GHZ 1       EHZ 1       EHZ 1
    5.         GHZ 2       GHZ 2       EHZ 2       EHZ 2
    6.  
    7. Slot 01:
    8.         GHZ 3       GHZ 3       empty       empty
    9.         empty       empty       empty       empty
    10.  
    11. Slot 02:
    12.         LZ 1        empty       WZ 1        WZ 1 (leftover)
    13.         LZ 2        empty       WZ 2        WZ 2 (leftover)
    14.  
    15. Slot 03:
    16.         LZ 3        empty       empty       empty
    17.         LZ 4        empty       empty       empty
    18.  
    19. Slot 04:
    20.         MZ 1        CPZ 1       MZ 1        MZ 1
    21.         MZ 2        CPZ 2       MZ 2        MZ 2
    22.  
    23. Slot 05:
    24.         MZ 3        empty       MZ 3        MZ 3
    25.         empty       empty       empty       empty
    26.  
    27. Slot 06:
    28.         SLZ 1       EHZ 1       empty       WFZ 1
    29.         SLZ 2       EHZ 2       empty       WFZ 2
    30.  
    31. Slot 07:
    32.         SLZ 3       empty       HTZ 1       HTZ 1
    33.         empty       empty       HTZ 2       HTZ 2
    34.  
    35. Slot 08:
    36.         SYZ 1       HPZ 1       HPZ 1       HPZ 1 (leftover)
    37.         SYZ 2       HPZ 2       HPZ 2       HPZ 2 (leftover)
    38.  
    39. Slot 09:
    40.         SYZ 3       empty       empty       empty
    41.         empty       empty       empty       empty
    42.  
    43. Slot 0A:
    44.         SBZ 1       HTZ 1       OOZ 1       OOZ 1
    45.         SBZ 2       HTZ 2       OOZ 2       OOZ 2
    46.  
    47. Slot OB:
    48.         SBZ 3       empty       DHZ 1       MCZ 1
    49.         empty       empty       DHZ 2       MCZ 2
    50.  
    51. Slot 0C:
    52.         Ending      S1 Ending   CNZ 1       CNZ 1
    53.                                     CNZ 2       CNZ 2
    54.                        
    55. Slot 0D:                   
    56.                                     CPZ 1       CPZ 1
    57.                                     CPZ 2       CPZ 2
    58.                        
    59. Slot 0E:
    60.                                     GCZ 1       DEZ 1
    61.                                     GCZ 2       DEZ 2
    62.  
    63. Slot 0F:
    64.                                     NGHZ 1      ARZ 1
    65.                                     NGHZ 2      ARZ 2
    66.  
    67. Slot 10:
    68.                                     DEZ 1       SCZ 1
    69.                                     DEZ 2       SCZ 2
     
  17. drx

    drx

    mfw Researcher
    2,254
    350
    63
    :rolleyes:
    One would think I'd be less excited than this if this was a hoax (logs from #cult, when I played it for the first time):

    This is by no means any evidence, just posting it for the record :(
     
  18. Cinossu

    Cinossu

    Administrator
    2,832
    44
    28
    London, UK
    Sonic the Hedgehog Extended Edition
    What the above might show is that they were still considering three acts per zone..

    EHZ 1 and 2. blank blank.
    WZ 1 and 2. blank blank.
    MZ 1, 2 and 3. blank.
    blank blank. HTZ 1 and 2.
    HPZ 1 and 2. blank blank.
     
  19. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    Everything seems to make sense in this prototype, doesn't look like a hoax.


    Plus, I don't think drx would do such a thing.
     
  20. SMTP

    SMTP

    Tech Member
    Cinossu just about summed it up!