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Sonic Jam commentaries tell all~ tl;wr: Early GHZ proven, FBZ+ICZ, GCZ = MZ3. Craziness!

#1 User is offline Scarred Sun 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 01:26 AM

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So, the fine denizens of #retro were sitting around earlier discussing the Sonic Team commentary that's included in the Sonic Jam Japanese strategy guide, and we realized quite a lot! There's little tidbits about each level mentioned for S1-3K, and among the things realized:

Naka on Hill Top Zone said:

The thing that stands out most in this zone is probably the way the whole screen shakes in the areas where the lava is moving. And then the mountain in the background has a slightly polygon-like look to it. We were aiming for a look similar to the kind of thing we had in mind with Sonic 1's Green Hill Zone.


Posted Image Posted Image

Naka on Ice Cap Zone said:

While developing, we went snowboarding a lot at a nearby resort. People kept getting injured though… (laugh) Originally, this stage was planned to begin after zone 8 (Flying Battery Zone). Sonic was going to break down the door from the airship and make a snowboard out of it on the way down. The other characters can fly, so they wouldn't appear in that event.


Naka on Metropolis Zone said:

Due to problems with the story, Act 3 was going to be a different Zone that would only appear once, but since it was cut, we still wanted to have something after Act 2. So that's why there are three acts in this one. We had already finished the map, and it would have been a shame to waste it, so this is what we went with.


Quote

Tom Payne (the artist in charge of this level) had also been assigned another level


[00:43] <Tweaker> WHY THE FUCK DID NOBODY EVER BRING THIS UP BEFORE
[00:43] <Tweaker> BECAUSE UH
[00:43] <Tweaker> GENOCIDE CITY HELLO
[00:44] <Ashura> he shold kick fast like fox
[00:44] <ScarredSun> What, no
[00:44] <GerbilSoft> metropolis 3 = genocide city wut
[00:44] <ScarredSun> Wouldn't the levels be next to each other then
[00:44] <Tweaker> it took years and an interview by ICEknight to confirm something that MOTHERFUCKING NAKA had said years ago in Sonic Jam
[00:44] <Tweaker> no, this is what... Morwaeic said I think
[00:44] <Tweaker> GCZ was scrapped and they put MTZ3 in its place
[00:45] <Tweaker> It was probably someone elser
[00:45] <Tweaker> I don't remember
[00:45] <Tweaker> but this is exactly what he said
[00:45] <Tweaker> so now I'm pissed because the community was too stupid to realize this
[00:45] <Shade> whoa
[00:45] <Tweaker> it was RIGHT THERE
[00:46] <MathUser> in the genocide city article it says tom payne said the third act of metropolis was made to replace it.
[00:46] <ScarredSun> Well shit
[00:46] <Tweaker> so I think it's pretty much needless to say that his words hold credibility over others re:HPZ for example
[00:46] <Tweaker> so HPZ was indeed where Super Sonic would get his powers
[00:47] <Tweaker> See
[00:47] <Shade> someone make a topic
[00:47] <Tweaker> THAT'S why HPZ was scrapped
[00:47] <Tweaker> It was too ambitious
[00:47] <Tweaker> and they didn't have enough time to do what they wanted
[00:47] <Tweaker> it all fits together
[00:47] <GerbilSoft> sega rush syndrome
[00:47] <Tweaker> Seriously
[00:47] <Shade> SONIC RUSH
[00:47] <GerbilSoft> also why super sonic in levels was implemented late
[00:47] <Tweaker> look at betas4-7
[00:47] <Tweaker> of Sonic 2
[00:47] <Tweaker> massive changes
[00:47] <Tweaker> in like
[00:47] <GerbilSoft> conclusion: super sonic in levels was *never supposed to happen*.
[00:47] <Tweaker> two weeks?
[00:48] <GerbilSoft> or, at least in the way it's in S2/S3
[00:48] <Tweaker> lol
[00:48] <Tweaker> nah
[00:49] <ScarredSun> That would kind of make sense why they never implemented Super in all levels post-Genesis
[00:49] <ScarredSun> If it was just a happy accident
[00:49] <ScarredSun> That was a rushed solution
[00:49] <Shade> hahahaha
[00:49] <Tweaker> hrm, I'm not sure
[00:49] <Shade> turns out the thing everyone bitches about in modern games
[00:49] <Shade> was how it was supposed to be
[00:49] <Shade> thatd be grand
[00:49] <GerbilSoft> which is probably why super sonic in levels was cut in SA1
[00:49] <Tweaker> Yeah but I'm kind of indifferent about that
[00:49] <GerbilSoft> they implemented it as a "backup plan" in case they got rushed too much
[00:49] <Tweaker> I think he meant to get Super Sonic in normal levels THROUGH HPZ
[00:50] <Tweaker> there's no point in Super Sonic otherwise
[00:50] <Tweaker> he doesn't have a specific purpose in the storyline
[00:50] <Tweaker> not like in S3
[00:50] <GerbilSoft> S3&K Super Ring style?
[00:50] <MathUser> woah...
[00:50] <MathUser> we already had a map. so that means genocide city would have a map very similar to metropolis zone 3.
[00:51] <MathUser> and it would be one act.
[00:51] <ScarredSun> That kind of makes sense
[00:51] <Shade> well yeah
[00:51] <ScarredSun> As it has a different feel than the other two
[00:51] <Shade> it was a smilar type of level
[00:51] <Shade> all scrap brian-ish and shit
[00:51] <Shade> brain* even
[00:51] <ScarredSun> Like riding in for the boss in that act
[00:51] <GerbilSoft> in before someone makes a hack changing Metropolis 3 to Genocide City
[00:53] <Tweaker> okay
[00:53] <GerbilSoft> Ashura: well windows vista is close
[00:53] <GerbilSoft> (drums)
[00:53] <Tweaker> I covered all the commentaries
[00:53] <Ashura> FUCK VISTA
[00:53] <Tweaker> were there any for the other games?
[00:53] <MathUser> and yeah, we got concept art of genocide city, and now we know the layout, it would be totally doable in a hack.
[00:53] <MathUser> we don't know the pallette, or music,
[00:53] <Tweaker> ....wait
[00:53] <Tweaker> wait a second
[00:53] <Tweaker> hoooooooollllllllld up
[00:53] <Tweaker> This opens up a whole new can of worms
[00:54] <Tweaker> If Metropolis Act 3 was originally GCZ
[00:54] <Tweaker> and act 3 is a different level slot
[00:54] <Tweaker> then GCZ would have been in the MTZ3 slot
[00:54] <Tweaker> so what the fuck was the GCZ slot for?
[00:54] <Shade> dundundun
[00:54] <Tweaker> My theory?
[00:54] <Keoro> random placeholder?
[00:54] <Tweaker> Winter Zone
[00:54] <Tweaker> but hey
[00:54] <Tweaker> who knows!
[00:55] <Ashura> 2am*
[00:55] <ScarredSun> Unless
[00:55] <ScarredSun> It was just really early when the level data was moved
[00:55] <ScarredSun> And they just hadn't cleaned it up yet
[00:55] <Shade> I still have a hunch that "Cyber City" and "genocide City" were just alternate time zones of the same level back when they were brainstroming possible time travel
[00:55] <Shade> which the concept art DOES show
[00:55] <Shade> so that's not unfeasible
[00:55] <Tweaker> well I know if it were me
[00:55] <MathUser> why say winter zone? desert zone probably would have come first, cause winterzone was gonna reuse its graphics.
[00:55] <Tweaker> I wouldn't have made a new level slot if I had one for the scrapped zone already
[00:55] <Ashura> with pallete swap
[00:56] <Ashura> just like emerald hill and hilltop
[00:56] <ScarredSun> That's what I'm saying. They left the slot open but didn't put anything in it yet
[00:56] <Tweaker> I think Time Travel was meant to be an overbearing story in Sonic 2 but they couldn't make it work out how they wanted
[00:56] <Tweaker> so they backed out on it
[00:56] <Tweaker> and Ohshima used the concept in Sonic CD
[00:56] <Shade> yeah that's obvious
[00:56] <Tweaker> Meaning
[00:56] <Shade> you have Wood Zone
[00:56] <Tweaker> I think that Sonic CD started BECAUSE of Sonic 2 scrapping that project
[00:57] <Tweaker> err
[00:57] <Tweaker> concept
[00:57] <Shade> which follows the criteria for time travel zones
[00:57] <Shade> one word name
[00:57] <Tweaker> hold up Shade
[00:57] <Shade> metropolis layout, blah blah
[00:57] <MK> 01:55:48 <07&Tweaker> Winter Zone
[00:57] <MK> That sounds correct
[00:57] <Shade> then they're like "nope"
[00:57] <MK> I imagine they got word of how many levels there were
[00:57] <Shade> and that was that
1!10!12
[00:57] <MK> and set them aside
[00:57] <Tweaker> If I could figure out exactly when Sonic CD started development
[00:57] <MK> and that's all
[00:57] <Tweaker> in comparison to Sonic 2
[00:57] <ScarredSun> Wood Zone is probably like Dust Hill/Neo Green Hill/whatever. Just a dev name
[00:57] <ScarredSun> I mean c'mon
[00:57] <Tweaker> Then it could be the connecting piece here
[00:57] <MK> Of course heh
[00:57] <Tweaker> and I mean
[00:57] <Shade> I still say it was the beggining of a plan to use time travel
[00:57] <Shade> which of course
[00:57] <Tweaker> ...!!!!!
[00:57] <Tweaker> SHADE
[00:57] <Shade> got scrapped almost immediately
[00:57] <MK> There would never have been "Desert" zone
[00:57] <Tweaker> STOP FOR A SEC
[00:57] <MK> or "Rock" zone
[00:57] <Tweaker> BREAKTHROUGH
[00:58] <Ashura> which'll go nowhere
[00:58] <Ashura> *shot*
[00:58] <Tweaker> Why the fuck do you think both of Brenda Ross' levels were scrapped?
[00:58] <Tweaker> They were alternate timezones
[00:58] <Shade> !!!
[00:58] <Shade> FUCK
[00:58] <MK> what
[00:58] <Ashura> But she said she just made mockups, not the actual levels
[00:58] <Tweaker> Wood Zone
[00:58] <ScarredSun> How is that new info
[00:58] <Shade> that's so crazy it actually makes an amount of sense
[00:58] <ScarredSun> I mean
[00:58] <Shade> Ashura
[00:58] <Tweaker> and she made the graphics for Desert Zone
[00:59] <Shade> time travel never made it past concept
[00:59] <ScarredSun> American artists got saddled to do the alt zones
[00:59] <Shade> possibly barring wood zone
[00:59] <Tweaker> I'm pretty damned sure it was in the game at one point
[00:59] <Shade> whihc as you can tell
[00:59] <ScarredSun> See Morawiec, Payne etc
[00:59] <Shade> is the most placeholder shit ever
[00:59] <Tweaker> ScarredSun: probably why R2 was scrapped P.gif
[00:59] <Shade> which*
[00:59] <MK> No guys
[00:59] <Tweaker> Wood Zone was never given much attention
[00:59] <MK> Don't you see?
[00:59] <MK> It's fucking obvious
[00:59] <Tweaker> and why would it? It's a timezone level
[00:59] <Tweaker> ....!!!!!
[00:59] <Tweaker> HOLY SHIT
[00:59] <Ashura> yeah, disregard what I said.
[00:59] <Tweaker> This fits in with what Saxman found before
[00:59] <Ashura> this is much better
[01:00] <Tweaker> in that Wood Zone
[01:00] <Tweaker> called a different pattern load cue
[01:00] <GerbilSoft> lol.
[01:00] <Tweaker> which loaded Tails' life icon
[01:00] <Tweaker> instead of Sonic's
[01:00] <Tweaker> And he said it was pretty clear evidence of a time travel concept
[01:00] <Shade> Wow I never thought I'd see the day where Tweaker didnt lamblast me for my Wood Zone and Cyber/Genocide City theories
[01:00] <Tweaker> I denied it before
[01:00] <Tweaker> but now it makes SENSE



#2 User is offline ronchie02 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 01:37 AM

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OH.SHIT.

#3 User is offline MathUser 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 01:38 AM

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Ok, to sum up what I think we know about Genocide city:

1- Concept art was released http://info.sonicret...ity_concept.jpg
2- I think I heard some graphics and maybe the pallette was reused in the machine level in sonic spinball.
3- The map layout and level order was the same as Metroplolis city act 3. Originally there would be no Metropolis City act 3, it would be 2 acts, and the 1 level Genocide city would take place after Metropolis City zone act 2.
4- The level layout would probably be similar to the Simon Wai prototype with the unused lift, because that is probably closer to what the original layout was before it was refined.

One thing we don't know is what enemies, or bosses would be placed here. We also don't know the music that would be used.
This post has been edited by MathUser: 23 May 2008 - 01:41 AM

#4 User is offline Rika Chou 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 01:54 AM

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Metroplolis city?



:P

#5 User is offline Spexfox 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 01:58 AM

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;_; I'm never in IRC when cool shit happens.

Anyway, some excellent stuff there. It feels like we're back at the beginning again or something. Once Genocide City looked like it was done with, it almost felt like some magic left the whole Sonic Beta research. But now this - this is good =)

#6 User is offline MK 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:09 AM

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Tweaker said this was important to keep pertaining to this topic, it's the level slots. Sonic 2, with the Wai proto in parentheses.

00 = Emerald Hill (Green Hill)
01 = Empty
02 = Empty (Wood)
03 = Empty
04 = Metropolis
05 = Metropolis 2 [Cyber City?]
06 = Wing Fortress
07 = Hill Top
08 = Hidden Palace
09 = Empty
0A = Oil Ocean
0B = Mystic Cave (Dust Hill)
0C = Casino Night
0D = Chemical Plant
0E = Death Egg (Genocide City)
0F = Aquatic Ruin (Neo Green Hill)
10 = Sky Chase (Death Egg)

02:54:25 <GerbilSoft> slot numbers don't really mean anything though.
02:54:28 <MK> Why did they move Death Egg?
02:55:02 <Tweaker> Level slots don't just get moved around like that
02:55:05 <Tweaker> there's a LOT of shit to change
This post has been edited by MK: 23 May 2008 - 03:05 AM

#7 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:27 AM

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Okay, so get this. We have Wood Zone, we have Genocide City. We have Desert Zone. All of these levels have one thing in common: They're scrapped levels in Sonic 2. For one reason or another, they never made the cut, and there's only been speculation as to why. Brenda Ross in particular was crushed to see her work removed, with little explanation as to why. I think I have an idea why, though...

First off, let's start with Genocide City. We all know that, of course, this level was originally called Cyber City Zone, and was to follow a similar theme to The Machine in Sonic Spinball. In other words, it was your generic "Eggman's Base" type level, with your mechanical traps, buzzsaws, tight mechanical chutes, etc. It was scrapped, according to an interview with Tim Skelly by ICEknight, and the level was replaced with a third act of Metropolis Zone. Nothing special. But then we come to this, which I found in the Metropolis Zone article:

Yuji Naka, on Sonic Jam Commentaries, said:

Due to problems with the story, Act 3 was going to be a different Zone that would only appear once, but since it was cut, we still wanted to have something after Act 2. So that's why there are three acts in this one. We had already finished the map, and it would have been a shame to waste it, so this is what we went with.


Two things to note here. Number one is the fact that this statement has existed for well over 10 years, and it took Tim Skelly to say the same thing in an interview years later—why did nobody ever notice this before? It's right there, plain English and all... Come on, guys, you're slipping. =P

Secondly, you'll notice that Naka says that the map for the Zone was reused, and that they didn't want to waste it, so it became Metropolis Act 3. Meaning, of course, that Metropolis Act 3 is Genocide City Zone! The first act, anyway. Did you ever notice that it had a different feel from the other levels? I'm betting that the map was reused because the levels had such a similar feel. It worked out pretty well, wouldn't you say? :)

Next, let's focus back on Brenda Ross. Brenda Ross designed, depending on how you view it, from 2 to 3 levels—Desert Zone, Wood Zone, and the Winter Zone which would accompany the Desert Zone. Each of these levels were created and scrapped very early in development for unknown reasons, and she was crushed! Who puts all that time and effort into designing full sets of level art just to get them scrapped?

Well, I think there was a reason behind this; they weren't needed anymore. Yeah, that's clear. But why weren't they needed?

Here's my idea: They were alternate timezones.

Whoa there Tweaker, full stop! Time travel was only a distant concept! They never did anything serious with it! That doesn't make sense.

Well now, hold the phone there! Allow me to explain.

We all know that Time Travel was a proposed concept in the development of Sonic 2. We've got concept art that supports this. The question is, of course, how far did they take it? Was it just something that was proposed and shot down, or was the game designed around it? Were many level concepts meant to be tied together to hold a purpose in the storyline? In fact, might there have been actually been an involved storyline to the game?

Consider the levels that were scrapped. You've got Wood Zone, which appears to draw parallells to Metropolis Zone in level design. You've got tree trunks following similar paths of the teleportation corridors. You've got the level slot in the Wai proto playing the Metropolis Zone music. Eggman's gigantic mechanical city has to be built on top of some sort of foundation—what better than a massive forest, right? Tear down the resources, use them for fuel, and use the land to build your city. What better way is there to make a base?

You know something else about Wood Zone? A few years back, saxman reported an oddity with one of the Pattern Load Cue definitions for Wood Zone. Specifically, it was explicitly telling the game to load the Tails life icon, and not the Sonic life icon, which was the standard for the other levels. He suggested that it may have been some sort of preliminary pattern load cue that would have loaded something like a timezone icon, similar to Sonic CD. It was initially disregarded, but think about it—doesn't it make a bit more sense given the surrounding details? I think it does.

Back to the other levels. You've got Genocide City Zone, which is another one of Eggman's massive bases. It's got your buzzsaws, your tube gimmicks, your slopes, your run-the-fuck-away-while-Eggman-sends-massive-armies-of-badniks-after-you, and what have you. It plays Chemical Plant's music. Wouldn't it make sense to build another base off an Energy Plant? It's got all the resources you need to maintain a massive base—and, after all, the more land you've got established, the easier it is to take over the planet. It would, indeed, be an ideal place to build another Cybernetic City!

On a side note, I'm starting to think that "Genocide City" was a joke name thought up by the developers, because all that level ever ended up being was Sonic falling to his death. Hey, programmers can make funnies too! Besides that, the name "Genocide City" doesn't seem to be familiar among any of the level designers. I'm not making any outright claims in that regard, but perhaps it's food for thought. =P

Now we circle back to Desert Zone. Based on the concepts we've got, this was likely meant to be its own original Zone rather than a timezone of another existing Zone. In fact, the Desert Zone had its own alternate timezone: Rock Zone! Rock Zone was meant to be the past of Desert Zone, in which many different gameplay aspects would change. It'd have a prehistoric feel, likely meant to depict the land before years of decay and corrosion turned all the solid rocks into sand. However, both the Desert and Rock Zone concepts were canned pretty early on.

Still, do you really think the concept of time travel was shallow enough that it only covered the Desert Zone? And do you really think these levels were scrapped without purpose? I don't think so. I think that, once, Sonic 2 was planned around this time travel storyline. I think that once that concept went down the drain, levels related to that concept started getting canned slowly but surely, until they were all gone. And I think that's why Metropolis Zone got a 3rd act—because now there wasn't an alternate timezone to place that level data in. No need to make the game shorter, right? Recycle that layout, just like you'd later recycle the Hidden Palace concept! :)

And you know what else? I think that once the time travel concept was initially dropped from Sonic 2, Ohshima wanted to see it live, so development on Sonic CD started. The parallels between Sonic 2 and Sonic CD, indeed, may be much more relevant than we once thought they were.



Something else I want to do here is mention Hidden Palace Zone. We've had conflicting stories about why Hidden Palace was scrapped, and what purpose it had. Let's cover a few common misconceptions in list form thusly:

Myth: Hidden Palace was scrapped due to a lack of space.
Truth: Hidden Palace was scrapped due to a lack of time available to finish the level to the extents that they wanted it completed.

There have been various testimonies that there was a lack of space on the cart to fit Hidden Palace along with everything else, and that, as a result, the game was scrapped. This is bullshit. With the recent acquisition of drx's set of internal SEGA prototypes, we've been given a much clearer, much broader look at Sonic 2's development. These betas spanned from roughly two weeks before the game's final build date up to its final compilation. As we can see, drastic changes have been made during this very short period of development time. Hidden Palace was wiped (though its objects remained), levels were renamed, the new title screen was put in, serious game-breaking bugs were fixed, a new level select was programmed, among other things. And even after the game was released, there were at least two more revisions to fix existing bugs!

If there's anything we can gather, it's that Sonic 2 was rushed. "Sonic 2sday" was advertised in all of Sonic 2's marketing items promising a release date without any intention of changing it. A delay could be a serious dent in SEGA's reputation, and there was no time to mess around. The development team was put under immense pressure to get the game out on time.

Hidden Palace was a level which had a significant purpose in the storyline. Which ties into our next myth--

Myth: Hidden Palace was meant to be a normal level without any specific purpose.
Truth: Hidden Palace was the level in which Sonic was originally meant to gain his Super Sonic powers.

Yuji Naka himself stated in an interview that this was the purpose behind Hidden Palace Zone. The team had full intentions of including this level within the roster, and it was definitely scrapped for different reasons (and reluctantly, mind you) than the other zones. I mean, Hidden Palace had nothing to do with the time travel concept—why get rid of it? ;)

With this strict deadline and heavy ambitions for this zone, there was clearly a clash—nobody wanted to get rid of Hidden Palace, but at the time they really had no choice. In this sense, Sonic 2 is an incomplete game—there were many concepts they wanted to include, but ultimately could not due to a lack of time available to do so. I believe that Sonic 2 could have been vastly different if given more development time, in this sense. For the better? I'm not sure; if these concepts weren't canned, Sonic CD may not have ever been created, at least not exactly as it was today. And we all know that Sonic CD has a feel to it that has never been replicated in any Sonic game. It's very unique, and receives high amounts of praise for that.

Hidden Palace was a great concept. The Chaos Emeralds have always had a deeper purpose in the Sonic canon, as they've always been very mysterious and widely based around legend. Nobody knew what they did—exploring their deeper purpose in a level like Hidden Palace would have been an excellent touch on the part of the developers. This is why the concept was reused in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It's remained a staple of the series ever since!



Many have boldly claimed we know everything there is to know about Sonic 2. In reality, I don't think we've even scratched the surface. There will always be "facts" that we need to review, because as more information comes in and more developments are made, they tend to completely disregard everything that we've accepted as true for years. This is one of those times.

#8 User is offline Shade 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:44 AM

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And suddenly, Shade's crazy time travel theories hold credibility.

Called it. :)


Anyway, as I've been saying for quite some time now, I've always believed Wood Zone to be evidence of planned time travel. For one, it has that temporary "one word" name that other time travel concept zones held (rock, desert, etc), as well as painfully obvious placeholder art. One of the earliest and most incomplete Sonic 2 levels, and one of the earliest to be trashed; they obviously threw time travel out the door more or less from the get go.

I've also always theorized that "Genocide City" would have been another time zone of "Cyber City", seeing as how the levels are apparently, more or less, one in the same (as the concept art showed us). Just a personal hunch of mine, given the evidence. I have nothing so substantial to back it up outright.



basically what this all comes down to is god damn we rock.
This post has been edited by Shade: 23 May 2008 - 02:57 AM

#9 User is offline Irixion 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:57 AM

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If Metropolis 3 is Genocide City...Why not just change it's graphics? Then again, Metropolis wouldn't have a boss, but neither does knuckles in s3k's hidden palace. Graphics can't be that hard (It is sega, atleast when they were good). They never really focused on it, (Example broken tiles, esp. in ehz) The thing is they have a lot of 1 act zones only, Metropolis 3 (Judging this is GCZ), Hidden Palace, Wood Zone(Don't know about this one).

Maybe time travel was intended, but why wait until sonic CD? They could have done it in s3k. As for Desert Zone, I'm starting to think that hoax/concept was real, HPZ's is pretty darn close, and the Emerald Hill one is almost identical (Next to the layout, just mean graphics wise, and this one WAS off centered). What about the 'electrocution' that was 'supposed' to happen? I'm thinking sonic could have been zapped and thrown into another time zone(?).

Sonic 2 was really an early sonic CD...If they had applied all their ideas sonic 2 would have owned. Sega should really focus on Quality over release date. I'm pretty sure they were planning that for Sonic Unleashed, but they leaked and had to announce it. (Ohshit)

#10 User is offline MathUser 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:00 AM

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I guess I forgot to mention this, sort of on topic of new discoveries. This is also a comment from the Sonic Jam strategy guide:

"At first this stage was set to appear about after Zone 10. Although there would be fewer Acts this time, we thought having about 18 zones would be good, but having each zone stand out and fit in the story in a way that was easy to follow, in the end it dropped down to 11 zones, and Chemical Plant was placed as the second stage. In the end it was a success (laughs)"

So there are 11 zones in final, we know of these scrapped levels:
Hidden Palace Zone
Wood Zone
Genocide City Zone
Desert Zone
Winter level
Rock Zone

So, that leaves out one undocumented scrapped level. But maybe he could have been counting the special stage as a Zone too, who knows. But I thought I'd post this anyway.

#11 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:04 AM

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Pretty sure he's referring to Genocide City, since it's rather redundant outside of a time travel-based storyline.

#12 User is offline Metal Man88 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:11 AM

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Very interesting as usual.

I guess this (once again) blows away people's thoughts about what the original plan for Sonic 2 was. It sounds almost S3K-like in its size and of course Sonic CD-like in its time travel implementation, plus the Hidden Palace zone dealie.

Can't be 100% sure, but it makes the most sense at the moment—plus it's got interesting things to support it.

#13 User is offline BadCopNoDonut 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:12 AM

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This is probably a stupid question, I'm committing a big no-no in not going through and researching the sites, but it is 3 a.m. and I'm tired and can't be assed into checking, but along the same lines, could Hill Top Zone/Emerald Hill Zone be evidence of some sort of time travel? Maybe an ice age wore Hill Top Zone down or something to EHZ, or after years, maybe continents crashed together, pushed up a bunch of hills and mountains and shit. and turned EHZ into HTZ. They have roughly the same art, with a few alterations an a different background in there. *shrugs* Feel free to tell me I'm full of shit/there's an alternate explanation. Its just one thing that came to mind.

#14 User is offline Quexinos 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:13 AM

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Quote

Myth: Hidden Palace was meant to be a normal level without any specific purpose.
Truth: Hidden Palace was the level in which Sonic was originally meant to gain his Super Sonic powers.

Yuji Naka himself stated in an interview that this was the purpose behind Hidden Palace Zone. The team had full intentions of including this level within the roster, and it was definitely scrapped for different reasons (and reluctantly, mind you) than the other zones. I mean, Hidden Palace had nothing to do with the time travel concept—why get rid of it?

I like how when I brought this up before everyone went, "No, that's not true, Naka was just saying what we wanted to hear. Nothing special was in that zone..."

and now everyone believes. I hate it when no one listens to me. And I thought we all ready knew that time travel was going to be in Sonic 2. Seriously, this is nothing new. I don't know why everyone is spazzing about it... the only new thing is:

Interesting about MZ3 being Genocide City though. That's pretty freaking awesome right there.

#15 User is offline Flygon 

Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:16 AM

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Meanwhile this has been in the wiki for yonkers and no one even pointed it out :P

But yeah, finally someone pointed it out.

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