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The Sonic the Hedgehog Theories Thread Because we've covered the Mania Plus Thread with too much fanon.

#1 User is offline BlackHole 

Posted 08 April 2018 - 03:04 PM

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Welp, here's a thread for those of us interested in sharing theories and headcanons. Please don't get into arguments, debates, sure, but don't be jerks during one.

Because I'm in a bit of a rush, I'll post my up-to-date Sonic Timeline theory:

View PostBlackHole, on 30 November 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Spoiler


And the timeline mentions a second Metal Sonic during Triple Trouble. That isn't a random addition, that Metal Sonic is damaged and refurbished by Robotnik with knowledge garnered during Generations, building the Metal Sonic seen in Sonic 3 and Knuckles from TT Metal Sonic's remains.

Please, share your theories, I'd be interested to hear them all.
This post has been edited by BlackHole: 09 April 2018 - 12:04 PM

#2 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 08 April 2018 - 04:31 PM

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It's worth pointing out that Metal Sonic didn't become an actual character until it was established in Sonic Heroes (which borrows from the Sonic OVA). Before that, he was just one of Robotnik's robots along with Mecha Sonic.

We need to keep in mind that until Sonic Adventure, there wasn't much of a need to establish a consistent series of events. The games in the classic era could be considered like episodes in a cartoon where everything happens but doesn't necessarily need to happen in order. As I said in the previous thread, the attempt at telling an RPG styled grandiose story is where things breakdown. In trying to tell a bigger story they only create more problems for the later games to come which lead to retcons and plot holes.

In addition, Sonic Adventure wasn't the only soft reboot. Sonic Generations (thanks to its time fuckery) was a new baseline, a "get out of continuity free" card if you will. History was literally rewritten so any inconsistency can be hand waived away as no longer mattering. I don't think Sonic Team intended this but it is convenient.

Lastly, I'm gonna repost what I posted in the other thread about the Mario timeline.

Actually Shigeru Miyamoto has said many times that mario games are "timeless" and don't have a real canon to them. This becomes apparent when you realize that the Super Mario Bros. movie is actually holds some weight as this quote shows:

“This is an old story, but Hollywood did a film version of the Mario Bros. many years back. There was a scene in the script where they needed a last name for the characters. Somebody suggested that, because they were the Mario Bros., their last name should be Mario. So, they made him “Mario Mario.” I heard this and laughed rather loudly. Of course, this was ultimately included in the film. Based on the film, that's [how] their names ended up. But, just like Mickey Mouse doesn't really have a last name, Mario is really just Mario and Luigi is really just Luigi.”

https://nintendoever...is-mario-mario/

So, Miyamoto dicking around seems to make a better continuity then actively trying. Of course. Maybe if we got Yuji Naka, Takashi Iizuka, and Yu Suzuki drunk in the same room they'd give us the timeline we've been lookin for.
This post has been edited by Laughingcow: 08 April 2018 - 05:35 PM

#3 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 08 April 2018 - 05:25 PM

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We uh

Kinda don't do this sort of thread on Retro, really. It's in the ruleset and everything.

http://forums.sonicr...showtopic=11220

Quote

12. No half-assed "theories."

Since the earliest stages of the Sonic community's inception, there has been speculation regarding certain aspects of Sonic game development. As a result, many members would make "theories" to try and explain what could not be backed up by any sort of concrete evidence. The problem with this, however, is that about 99% of "theories" were total crap and did not make any sense whatsoever.

If you wish to post any speculation on the board, then realize that it is up to you to back up your speculation with concrete evidence. All theories and ideas must be supported by facts and elaborated with reasons. The burden of proof is on YOUR side to support the theory, not on ours to debunk it. Generally, opinionated theories are obsolete as they've been replaced by fact-oriented research. DO NOT start any theory unless you know what you're talking about.


Headcanon kinda falls under this.

#4 User is offline Sparks 

Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:39 PM

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Is that for game development specifically or just theories about the games lore overall?

I think it's at least worth experimenting this kind of thread as a stand-alone concentrated "filter" thread, as judging from the Mania thread, it does seem to be a hot topic a lot of people want to discuss.

#5 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:49 PM

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I was sure that rule was added when we got sick of people making up theories and trying to push them as real about tails owning the master emerald in Hidden Palace, stuff like that.

I have a head cannon that nothing past Sonic 3 & Knuckles ever happened (And Mania) :v:

#6 User is offline Hitlersaurus Christ 

Posted 08 April 2018 - 10:40 PM

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My theory is that Sonic is actually a real hedgehog that came across and ingested a large quantity of LSD and the entire franchise is just what he's seeing.

#7 User is offline doc eggfan 

Posted 09 April 2018 - 05:23 AM

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I don't think everything needs to be in one continuous timeline

Epoch 1
More traditional platforming, no spin dash
  • Sonic 1 (16-bit)
  • Sonic 1 (8-bit)
  • Sonic 2 (8-bit) {bridging epoch 1.5}

**Timeline splits in two**

Epoch 2
Levels with more horizontality, plus spin dash. Death Egg arc, part 1.
  • Sonic 2 (16-bit)
  • Sonic Pocket Adventure

Epoch 2'
Levels with more verticality, plus super peel out. Metal Sonic arc.
  • Sonic Chaos {bridging epoch 1.5'}
  • Sonic CD
  • Sonic Triple Trouble
  • Knuckles Chaotix (epoch 3' maybe?)

**Epoch 2' terminates, Epoch 3, follows Epoch 2**

Epoch 3
Level design good balance of horizontal and vertical, plus elemental shields. Death Egg arc, part 2.
  • Sonic 3
  • Sonic & Knuckles

Epoch 4
  • Sonic Mania


That's about it for the mainline classic 2D series, in my mind. The rest could be dismissed as "non-canon" spin-offs.
This post has been edited by doc eggfan: 09 April 2018 - 08:20 AM

#8 User is offline SoNick 

Posted 09 April 2018 - 06:03 AM

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View PostOverlord, on 08 April 2018 - 05:25 PM, said:

We uh

Kinda don't do this sort of thread on Retro, really. It's in the ruleset and everything.

This is actually what I came into the topic to say as well. This is a research site, not fanfiction.net.

#9 User is offline Hitlersaurus Christ 

Posted 09 April 2018 - 06:34 AM

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My theory is that rings are actually robotnik's poop that he leaves everywhere for Sonic to clean up.

They look that way because he has a rare intestinal condition. He is sick. Sonic is picking on a sick old man. Much like God of War, Sonic is a game where you play as the villain.
This post has been edited by Hitlersaurus Christ: 09 April 2018 - 06:36 AM

#10 User is offline XCubed 

Posted 09 April 2018 - 08:52 AM

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View PostSoNick, on 09 April 2018 - 06:03 AM, said:

View PostOverlord, on 08 April 2018 - 05:25 PM, said:

We uh

Kinda don't do this sort of thread on Retro, really. It's in the ruleset and everything.

This is actually what I came into the topic to say as well. This is a research site, not fanfiction.net.


Exactly. By now I've learned that they do not want a set “timeline” of events. It hinders creativity. The only true conspiracy is Sonic 3's music (which is its own thread) and the Sonic 4 cliffhanger which needs to be concluded with an animation, comic, book, something. But no more therories. If you have one, write a book and share it in the Creative Works forum. :colbert:
This post has been edited by XCubed: 09 April 2018 - 08:56 AM

#11 User is offline Scarred Sun 

Posted 09 April 2018 - 09:21 AM

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Ugh, headcanon and fanon are... not really our jam here, but I want to see if this goes somewhere. That said, let's set some ground rules:

1. Hello Internet comedians please find another topic to make your jokes. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt but if we're just cracking one-liners this topic will have no chance of surviving.

2. If you're going to post any headcanon or fanon theory, you still need demonstrable evidence and a writeup. We're talking corroborating evidence like manual texts, developer interviews, some actual screenshots, promotional content, something. Not two sentences of "I think this."

If it works, it works; if not, this topic will be locked.

#12 User is offline BlackHole 

Posted 09 April 2018 - 12:15 PM

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I've removed the mentions of headcanon and the Robotnik one, make it more inline with the forum's rules. My apologies, I thought I'd shift the discussion from Mania Plus into a thread more suitable towards it, and theories can prove interesting when people are willing to invest time into it. Zelda is rife for it, and some of them are fairly interesting.

Examples of what we could look at are things like the Angel Island pyramids in Sandopolis. Were Echidna are Humans particularly close at some point, since Humans appear in their murals?

#13 User is offline Chainspike 

Posted 10 April 2018 - 02:03 AM

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the classic games took place on Sonic's world. Humans (except for robotnik) are non-existent in Sonic games up until Sonic Adventure. Except for that carving in Sandopolis Zone act 2 which was likely nothing more than a level artist making the Zone look like an Egyptian Pyramid. They said themselves whilst making Adventure 1, that they wanted Sonic to be in a more realistic world. This was also a main plot point for an entire (non-canon) TV show (Sonic X). Also, it seems like Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania take place in Sonic's world too.


Sonic probably learned the spin dash from this guy: (Image to big)
Spoiler

It actually would unoffically be the first use of the spindash in a Sonic game.

#14 User is offline Hitlersaurus Christ 

Posted 10 April 2018 - 03:24 AM

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View PostChainspike, on 10 April 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the classic games took place on Sonic's world. Humans (except for robotnik) are non-existent in Sonic games up until Sonic Adventure. Except for that carving in Sandopolis Zone act 2 which was likely nothing more than a level artist making the Zone look like an Egyptian Pyramid. They said themselves whilst making Adventure 1, that they wanted Sonic to be in a more realistic world. This was also a main plot point for an entire (non-canon) TV show (Sonic X). Also, it seems like Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania take place in Sonic's world too.

That's certainly what Sega's going with now, but back when Yuji Naka was with Sega someone asked him why there were humans in Adventure but not the originals and he said it's because the previous games took place on islands where there weren't many humans but the Adventures take place on the mainland.

#15 User is offline DigitalDuck 

Posted 10 April 2018 - 08:31 AM

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Okay, so a fair bit of fanwankery but this is how I see it:

Sonic 1 (8-bit) and Sonic 1 (16-bit) - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Tails' Skypatrol - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic 2 8-bit - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic 2 16-bit - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic 3K - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic Generations (Classic) - Classic Universe only
Spoiler


Sonic & Tails - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic 3K (Knuckles) - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic & Tails 2 - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic 3D - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic CD - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Tails Adventure - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
Spoiler


Sonic the Fighters - Classic Universe only:
Spoiler


Sonic 4 - Modern Universe only:
Spoiler


Sonic Mania - Classic Universe only:
Spoiler


Sonic Forces (Classic) - Classic Universe only:
Spoiler


Chaotix - Classic Universe only:
Spoiler


The rest of the games are Modern Universe only and order is effectively game order starting from Sonic Pocket Adventure. I'm not counting most spinoffs in this as they should be considered non-canon.

Classic Universe:
Sonic 1 (8-bit) and Sonic 1 (16-bit)
Tails' Skypatrol
Sonic 2 8-bit
Sonic 2 16-bit
Sonic 3K
Sonic Generations (Classic)
Sonic & Tails
Sonic 3K (Knuckles)
Sonic & Tails 2
Sonic 3D
Sonic CD
Tails Adventure
Sonic the Fighters
Sonic Mania
Sonic Forces (Classic)
Chaotix

Modern Universe:
Sonic 1 (8-bit) and Sonic 1 (16-bit)
Tails' Skypatrol
Sonic 2 8-bit
Sonic 2 16-bit
Sonic 3K
Sonic & Tails
Sonic 3K (Knuckles)
Sonic & Tails 2
Sonic 3D
Sonic CD
Tails Adventure
Sonic 4
Sonic Pocket Adventure
Sonic Adventure etc.

TL;DR: Generations caused Classic Universe Sonic to focus on the air dash, this developed into the Drop Dash; Peelout is a Modern Universe thing, eventually developed into the Boost. Minus Peelout but plus experience, Classic Universe Sonic was more direct in fights against Metal Sonic and caused more damage against him than his Modern Universe counterpart, massively diverging the timelines and creating the Phantom Ruby as a result.

There, you wanted theories.

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