[Aerosol]

I don't know. Wall jump sections don't really serve a purpose other than making the player press jump a bunch of times. They're like slower, more tedious versions of Dimps Spring Corridors ™.

How about this. If your idea for a new move wouldn't work in any of the original trilogy of games, then it's probably not a very good idea.

[Scripten]

I notice that a lot of the character powers focus almost entirely on going in different directions. Tails goes upwards and can access routes that neither Sonic nor Knuckles can get to. Knuckles can go straight, breaking through rocks and possibly gliding places where you might not be able to get Tails into. (I don't recall any parts of Sonic 3 that utilized this, but it's a possibility)

What about down? Sonic's stomp move from the Modern games hasn't seen quite as much light as even the homing attack, but there's a lot of ways it could be used to access Sonic-only paths. Likewise, if you've got real Sonic physics, landing on a slope after using a stomp to smash through breakable ground could keep momentum up, with the vertical inertia converting to horizontal. The biggest tissue with this, I think, is that using a stomp move as Sonic would be a lot like letting go of the jump button while gliding as Knuckles. With a heavier character like Knuckles, it feels a lot more "right" when your momentum is brought to a halt, whereas none of Sonic's previous movesets eliminated forward momentum. Even the bubble shield gave a lot more freedom of movement than the stomp, and, if the elemental shield powers are kept, it'd be rather redundant for the bubble shield to have the bounce unless it could removed the ability for Sonic to access those extra paths in exchange for protection. In this case, it seems unfair to limit Sonic's signature move when the other characters can keep theirs, but on the other hand, Sonic gaining shield powers is a really good design decision.

Sorry I can't contribute with anything more solid.

[Sonica]

jasonchrist, on 15 April 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Sonica, on 15 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

(I think the wall jump could really be cool, even if it means forcing it!)

*cries and grabs trouser leg* please god, no!!

Ok ok. I wouldn't really have done that to you lovely people! I'm still very much open to adding any move.

[Solid SOAP]

I like the idea of the wall-jump, not only because it gives Sonic a new function, but it also allows him to stay the speediest character that requires more skill to master. Yes, Tails and Knuckles can vault level design with ease via the climbing and flying, but the wall jump is faster if you know what you're doing. I think it'd make sense if it were a split-second or second long deal, where once you make contact with a wall a prompt will show up ala a spark or something indicating that Sonic has touched the wall, giving you that second-long window of opportunity to make the jump.

[Shaun Shikeishuu]

I think the wall jump can work as long as it isn't over used. I can understand people not wanting Sonic to have vertical exploration since it would mean Sonic can now take paths that were previously exclusive to Tails and Knuckles. However there is a key difference between Sonic having a wall jump and Tails and Knuckles special abilities. The difference is that Sonic would need two vertical walls close enough together for him to even be able to pull off a wall jump. So based on level design you could give Sonic a wall jump and there could still be plenty of areas that only Tails and Knuckles could get to by simply not making it possible for Sonic to do the wall jump in that section.

[Aerosol]

I've typed this like, 4 times. And 4 times my connection crapped out, forcing me to retype it. So I'm going to make this brief.

Having wall jump sections is stupid if other characters can still navigate the section. You're just making the player press jump a bunch of times cause it 'looks cool'.

The fire shield has an air dash already, so I retract my suggestion. I hold that if Sonic gets a new move, it should be one that allows him to move quicker. Not "boost to win" for those of us who like to skim posts.

I also agree with Jayextee. Sonic doesn't actually need a new ability. His ability is that he gets perks from using shields. That should be enough.

[W.A.C.]

AerosolSP, on 15 April 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

@WAC

And two things to you sir. One, I'd argue that the walljump adds little to the gameplay and feels out of place.

I disagree with that. I feel wall jumping helped to improve a lot of games and I think it could work great in this game if it was implemented well.

AerosolSP, on 15 April 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Two, the way wall running works in Mirror's Edge 2D is entirely incompatible with Sonic gameplay. What the hell would you use it for? And I'm not talking about for one or two gimmicks or specially made sections in a level. On a regular basis, what would you use it for?

I referenced that flash game because it had good controls. Not saying this fangame should replicate it by any means, but I think some of the ideas if properly executed could enhance the gameplay experience of a Sonic game. I originally thought of that flash game as an example because another person on this site used it as an example in a different thread.

Sonica, on 15 April 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

jasonchrist, on 15 April 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Sonica, on 15 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

(I think the wall jump could really be cool, even if it means forcing it!)

*cries and grabs trouser leg* please god, no!!

Ok ok. I wouldn't really have done that to you lovely people! I'm still very much open to adding any move.

You won't be able to please everyone. Just look at Sonic 2 Retro Remix for example. Some people really love that rom hack while some people have criticized the hell out of it because they disagree with certain design decisions that go against the classic Sonic gamplay. Hell, Tweaker hacked some version of it just because he disagreed with a design decision so much. There are some fangames that play it really safe and some that take more risks. The ones that take more risks tend to get more criticism but also stand out more among the pack. Sonic 4: Episode 1 took barely any risks and ended up feeling stale. I'd hate for this fangame to suffer something similar because of opposition to ideas that go against the original Genesis games. I love those games and view S3&K as my favorite game of all time, but there's so much that can be done with formula whether it be minor or major decision decisions.

[Aerosol]

W.A.C., on 15 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

I disagree with that. I feel wall jumping helped to improve a lot of games and I think it could work great in this game if it was implemented well.

Offer an idea of how it could work well then. All I saw in that Sonic Retro 2 Remix was exactly what I'm talking about. Sections especially made for the wall jump. Not one of Sonic's new moves in any of the new games were overtly required. A gimmick (spindash elevators in Lava Reef) are one thing, because they're over in a moment. Entire sections? Well that's something else entirely and they don't belong.

W.A.C., on 15 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

I referenced that flash game because it had good controls. Not saying this fangame should replicate it by any means, but I think some of the ideas if properly executed could enhance the gameplay experience of a Sonic game. I originally thought of that flash game as an example because another person on this site used it as an example in a different thread.

It's still a poor example. I never said wall jumping and wall running are terrible for any game. I said they're terrible for a Sonic game.

W.A.C., on 15 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

...certain design decisions that go against the classic Sonic gamplay...

Then maybe Sonic 2 Retro Remix is not a very good example then? Considering that this fangame is attempting to be as natural an evolution of S3K as it can be.

[synchronizer]

Sonica, on 15 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Hhhhh, now I don't know, you all have an arguments and points.

Perhaps I'll just decide what I'll have more fun implementing, air boost or wall jump. (I think the wall jump could really be cool, even if it means forcing it!)

Just be careful, because the wall jump could break your level designs unless you actively include barriers or obstacles that limit it. That is the annoying part, and is exactly why I wouldn't advocate the implementation of a wall-jump.

[Blivsey]

CorralSummer, on 15 April 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Never liked the idea of a wall jump idea.
You obviously could add a super peel out. Maybe make it so you can use it while running so you don't lose speed (like in Sonic Generations how you could just hold square and use the spindash) Then there would be a reason to use it rather than the spin dash.

Edit:
This actually could work out. You can do it while running, but it stops you and it doesn't give you invincibility. So it's not a boost to win. Also because you can do it in the middle of running there would be a reason to use it rather then the spin dash.

I want to make note of something. I very strongly do not like the Super Peel-Out. It was introduced in Sonic CD as the fastest way to start moving. To make sure that the Peel-Out was the fastest way to start moving, they severely gimped the Spin-Dash, making it impossible and impractical to use. Why use the spindash when you can hold down after a Peel-Out? Why have the Spin-Dash at all?

Also, the Peel-Out appeared in one game and everyone thinks it's the shit and it needs to be everywhere

[Scripten]

AerosolSP, on 15 April 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

The fire shield has an air dash already, so I retract my suggestion. I hold that if Sonic gets a new move, it should be one that allows him to move quicker. Not "boost to win" for those of us who like to skim posts.

This gives me an idea. What if the fire shield dash were modified to allow for wall jumping? Or, alternatively, dashing into a wall bounces you off at an upward angle, turns the player around, and resets the dash ability. So basically all you do is dash multiple times at two parallel walls. That eliminates the complexity, keeps the momentum up, AND allows for the shield powers to be kept. Not to mention making the fire shield a little more useful for mobility.

[Aerosol]

You still have the issue of having to make specific sections where doing such a thing would be useful. I fear giving too much exploration ability to Sonic kind of negates the use of the other characters, making using them just a novelty. I'm not so worried about Knuckles, since he has his whole "I'll just break shit" thing going on. But what about Tails? Granted, Tails never really had areas only he could get to before, so why start now?

[Caniad Bach]

Sonica, I would have gotten you some music by now but I've been chucking my guts up for the past few days, so I haven't gone home yet. (Lucky me!)

I always thought the best way to balance Sonic out from the other characters in 3K was his speed, additional shield powers and the insta-shield, my personal favourite as it was potentially the most useful move, but only if you knew how to use it. Maybe a good way to improve his abilities is to simply give him a stronger spindash than the others. It would add to his current attributes without taking anything away, and this extra dash speed could be used to get a skilled player to higher paths.

I just thought of a[completely unrelated]n idea: How about while playing as Sonic, you could have special paths that could only be reached by being carried by Tails, rewarding the co-operative play and giving it a bit more of a purpose. I also like the idea of Tails being able to pick up certain objects (like bombs, weights, whatever), to be able to take him, or indeed him and Sonic, to new paths by pulling plugs, blowing up walls, blocking air vents, pressing switches, that sort of thing. It could work easily if it worked just by Tails flying onto the object. Arnt ideas fun!

EDIT: I just played S3K for a minute after reading this and had a few more thoughts, perhaps you could give Tails more options when flying: An Up+Jump 'grab' move (Elaborating on what I said earlier), and a Down+Jump 'Fly cancel', which would turn the fly into a roll but wouldn't allow additional flying to prevent it being overpowered/abused.

I was trying to think of ways to expand Knuckles abilities, and I figured, his power is basically beating the shit out of things, so why not make him kill bosses in fewer hits? His lower jump height makes it more difficult anyway. He could even perhaps earn more points for badnik kills.

This post has been edited by Caniad Bach: 15 April 2012 - 06:50 PM

[Scripten]

AerosolSP, on 15 April 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

You still have the issue of having to make specific sections where doing such a thing would be useful. I fear giving too much exploration ability to Sonic kind of negates the use of the other characters, making using them just a novelty. I'm not so worried about Knuckles, since he has his whole "I'll just break shit" thing going on. But what about Tails? Granted, Tails never really had areas only he could get to before, so why start now?

It would be interesting to add places that only Sonic can get to, though. I always felt like Sonic's paths were just a bit too overused. You could get to them with any character, and the shield powers never really offered too much more.

Here's an example of what you could do (Red is the flame dash, blue is where you are subject to normal jump physics):



Knuckles would take a different path, and Tails cannot break through bustable walls while flying, allowing Sonic sole access to this path.

[Boinciel]

On the subject of giving Sonic a wall-jump, my main issue with the implementations of it are that Sonic always jumps away at a fixed velocity, breaking the flow of the level and causing you to lose momentum. A possible solution to this would be to use something similar to what Runman - Race Around The World did. Basically. you could only wall-jump while you were zooming (boosting), and you auto-jumped off walls if you were in the air. If you were going up when you hit the wall, you would continue to fly upwards, but if you were moving down, you wall-jumped down to a lower level. When Runman finally landed on the ground, he was still going the same speed with no loss of momentum. Basically, the idea is that Sonic would wall-jump automatically with the speed he first jumps at the wall, and end up at the top or bottom after bouncing around like a frog in a blender.

However, how would we adapt this into a Sonic game with no boost function? I guess you could hold the jump button while in mid-air and moving towards a wall, but with instashield, that might be counter-intuitive to the player. It could also be automatic when Sonic's x velocity is greater than walking speed. This would make it semi-cosmetic, but also turn it into a speed-based challenge like loops.

This post has been edited by Boinciel: 15 April 2012 - 09:51 PM