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General Project Thread & Feedback

#46 User is offline The Growler 

Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:26 PM

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Without looking through all the replies here - forgive me for asking - but what engine are we using to create this with?

#47 User is offline Thundertimi 

Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:50 PM

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E02

#48 User is offline muteKi 

Posted 15 November 2008 - 08:28 PM

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Fit Nack in as playable? Easy.

Eggman balks on his payment to Nack / leaves him in peril in one of the later stages as per Triple Trouble, and he goes back up against Robotnik for revenge.

#49 User is offline Zenor 

Posted 15 November 2008 - 08:45 PM

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View PostmuteKi, on Nov 15 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

Fit Nack in as playable? Easy.

Eggman balks on his payment to Nack / leaves him in peril in one of the later stages as per Triple Trouble, and he goes back up against Robotnik for revenge.

That's not really the problem about fitting Nack as a playable character.. It's more about how he'll act. What kind of special move will he have, if that happens? How can we build special paths for his abilities?

A gun would be his special "move". But would it work?

#50 User is offline Phoenix 

Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:36 PM

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Side-scrolling shooter style, perhaps?

#51 User is offline GameNerd Advance 

Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:44 PM

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Nack could just have a generic jump special like a double jump, but his uniqueness would come in the fact that every now and then he'd find one of his mechs or machines that grant him a temporary gameplay change, allowing him to access different routes.

#52 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:46 PM

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You realize you guys are more or less describing a 2D version of Shadow the Hedgehog, right?

I think it'd be best to just... I don't know, not bother. I was aware it was concretely decided that Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles were the only playable characters—let's keep it that way.

#53 User is offline Mobiethian 

Posted 16 November 2008 - 04:29 PM

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Nack will be in the game as a mini boss, not a playable character. Nuff said.

#54 User is offline STHX 

Posted 17 November 2008 - 03:35 AM

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I'm surprised no one thought of a boomerang instead of a gun for Nack.

However unless he has no other means of attacking I don't think that long-range attacks should be used (kinda beat the purpose of a platform after all).

But even if this is the case long-range attacks would make the game a lot easier.


I'm sorry but I too am starting to think that a playable Nack would be a bad idea.

#55 User is offline Mindchamber 

Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:39 AM

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View PostJayextee, on Nov 10 2008, 04:05 AM, said:

ANIMATION



I completely agree with you on all points here. While I do love working on sprites on S2HD2, and its a noble effort on all involved, its completely devoid of any creativity whatsoever. I showed one of the programmers from castlecrashers the tech demo of S2HD, he was like, its not even pretty its just bigger, wtf's the point. I had to explain that projects doesnt call for any new Innovations, Its an HD version of a game already made. I also like it because its a great practice of discipline. This on the other hand could be incredible if people are allowed to let loose.

If we have no limitations on art and animation then we should strive to make it the most impressive Pixel game created. Full animation for main characters should be a must as well as a slew of impressive new moves.

personally I have mapped out a single level of my flash sonic game on paper for a while now,basically. its to me, what the next sonic game would evolve into. Sonic has a slew of parkour maneuvers and tons of with timer events and other minigames, emphasizing on speed and reflex. I'm trying to take Sonic as far as I can without sacrificing what makes it a sonic game, and you should too.

There's a Huge opportunity here to make something totally fresh, without being pigeon-holed like S2HD, you guys need to take it!.

#56 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:51 PM

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I forgot where exactly I had read all of this, but I wanted to respond to the conversation(s) about this project's style. I just hadn't had a real chance

One thing that really stands out to me is how much some of the conversation was based on "what if". I know that a major development point is that the project is trying to go back to a time before Sonic Adventure, and I think that there may have been actual use of the word "natural", but there's really nothing "unnatural" about what actually happened to Sonic's development. The points about this project's need for progression of art style and such because of the changes between the Genesis games certainly serves only to justify other forms of progress, such as Sega's natural evolution as a business, and their transition to the Saturn and Dreamcast, including even the gradual loss of each of the original team members. In that sense, we can never really create "the true Sonic 4" or anything like that, since everything that happened within the company did happen, and always would have happened. That doesn't mean you can't create something "in the spirit of the original games", but really, I don't think that the "what if" really stands up as much of a valid argument in terms of controlling the direction of the game. No matter how you try and spin it, this really is a "fan game", for better or worse. I think that needs to be accepted as fact, then the group can go on to make something great to spite that fact. There's nothing wrong with ambition, as long as you don't get "too big for your britches"

That brings me to my next concern.. there was debate about the platform for the project. I think it was there that the idea that this game should be based on "if Sonic never left the Genesis" came up. It came up that the group was looking for something that was "portable", which would be one reason this wouldn't be created as a "hack" instead (among some other dumb reasons..), but as a Genesis ROM can be run on a Genesis emulator, and there are several of them for many different platforms, I think that a Genesis game would already be "ported" by default that way

Finally, also on the "Genesis" idea, I'm wondering how that reconciles with the idea of taking advantage of features of another platform like E02. I think that it needs to be made absolutely clear whether or not this project needs to conform to Genesis limitations regardless of the actual development platform. I think that there are currently some people trying to take advantage of things like an expanded color palette, some much more complex object interactions that would require either some major reworking of one of the original games or would be too much stress on the Genesis's 7Mhz processor in the first place, and I think even some stuff that even E02 doesn't do. On the other end of the spectrum, there are also still notes and tutorials about using the tile/block/chunk method of the original games, while E02 is much less restricted in the sense of building the level map directly from 8x8 tiles. The project seems to need some more well-defined technical boundaries laid out in a single place, in a clear way

Those seem to be some issues that should be worked out more thoroughly before very much more is done in any other aspect of the project

#57 User is offline Rika Chou 

Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:52 PM

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View PostStealth, on Nov 18 2008, 03:51 AM, said:

I forgot where exactly I had read all of this, but I wanted to respond to the conversation(s) about this project's style. I just hadn't had a real chance

One thing that really stands out to me is how much some of the conversation was based on "what if". I know that a major development point is that the project is trying to go back to a time before Sonic Adventure, and I think that there may have been actual use of the word "natural", but there's really nothing "unnatural" about what actually happened to Sonic's development. The points about this project's need for progression of art style and such because of the changes between the Genesis games certainly serves only to justify other forms of progress, such as Sega's natural evolution as a business, and their transition to the Saturn and Dreamcast, including even the gradual loss of each of the original team members. In that sense, we can never really create "the true Sonic 4" or anything like that, since everything that happened within the company did happen, and always would have happened. That doesn't mean you can't create something "in the spirit of the original games", but really, I don't think that the "what if" really stands up as much of a valid argument in terms of controlling the direction of the game. No matter how you try and spin it, this really is a "fan game", for better or worse. I think that needs to be accepted as fact, then the group can go on to make something great to spite that fact. There's nothing wrong with ambition, as long as you don't get "too big for your britches"


I think that...everyone knows that no matter what, this is just a fangame. However, we need something to shoot for. A certain level of quality. When we speak about "what if", it's more like just a dream. I think anyone who loved the old Genesis style Sonic always wanted more...like a Sonic 4 for example. When we think about "what if Sega made a Sonic 4" back then, it gives us all something to aim for. I think everyone knows that whatever we end up with would be nothing like something Sega would have made if the past was different. We need to have unrealistically high goals if we want this to be something special. I think that if we can continue to work together as a community, we can do it.

View PostStealth, on Nov 18 2008, 03:51 AM, said:

That brings me to my next concern.. there was debate about the platform for the project. I think it was there that the idea that this game should be based on "if Sonic never left the Genesis" came up. It came up that the group was looking for something that was "portable", which would be one reason this wouldn't be created as a "hack" instead (among some other dumb reasons..), but as a Genesis ROM can be run on a Genesis emulator, and there are several of them for many different platforms, I think that a Genesis game would already be "ported" by default that way


To be honest, I always wanted this to be a Genesis ROM and not a computer fangame, but I don't think anyone really agreed with this. Maybe this can be made to run not just on computers or the Genesis, but also have ports for the DC, DS, PSP, and maybe others. By ports I mean actual ports, not just emulated on different systems. (because genesis would need less colors, DS would need smaller screen, etc etc...) I'm no programmer, so I really don't know if something like the E02 engine can even be ported in the first place.

View PostStealth, on Nov 18 2008, 03:51 AM, said:

Finally, also on the "Genesis" idea, I'm wondering how that reconciles with the idea of taking advantage of features of another platform like E02. I think that it needs to be made absolutely clear whether or not this project needs to conform to Genesis limitations regardless of the actual development platform. I think that there are currently some people trying to take advantage of things like an expanded color palette, some much more complex object interactions that would require either some major reworking of one of the original games or would be too much stress on the Genesis's 7Mhz processor in the first place, and I think even some stuff that even E02 doesn't do. On the other end of the spectrum, there are also still notes and tutorials about using the tile/block/chunk method of the original games, while E02 is much less restricted in the sense of building the level map directly from 8x8 tiles. The project seems to need some more well-defined technical boundaries laid out in a single place, in a clear way

Those seem to be some issues that should be worked out more thoroughly before very much more is done in any other aspect of the project

Personally, I really have no idea what the genesis or the E02 engine can really do. I think we really need whoever is in charge of this project (who is it now? I'm not even sure...) to discuss this with a programmer, then make some basic guide lines that everyone can follow. Though I don't think we have anyone on board who is actually a programmer and also willing to do a lot of work yet. Right now, I'm just worried about the graphics...because that is the only thing that I have any skill at.
This post has been edited by Rika Chou: 18 November 2008 - 05:53 PM

#58 User is offline Stealth 

Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:23 PM

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View PostRika Chou, on Nov 18 2008, 02:52 PM, said:

I think that...everyone knows that no matter what, this is just a fangame. However, we need something to shoot for. A certain level of quality. When we speak about "what if", it's more like just a dream. I think anyone who loved the old Genesis style Sonic always wanted more...like a Sonic 4 for example. When we think about "what if Sega made a Sonic 4" back then, it gives us all something to aim for. I think everyone knows that whatever we end up with would be nothing like something Sega would have made if the past was different. We need to have unrealistically high goals if we want this to be something special. I think that if we can continue to work together as a community, we can do it.

Well, as I intended to say originally, Chaotix was supposed to be "Sonic 4", and in reality, that's what Sonic Adventure is :P I also think that's what they were going for with the Advance series, so, it's kinda not exactly like that hasn't already happened. I also said, though, that there's nothing wrong with wanting to do something great, though I disagree with the "need" for "unrealistically high goals". If you know that it is, or it can be proven to be unrealistic, you need to change your aim as soon as possible. Otherwise, you'll just end up wasting time only to be disappointed and discouraged. That's pretty much the difference between ambition and delusion

View PostRika Chou, on Nov 18 2008, 02:52 PM, said:

To be honest, I always wanted this to be a Genesis ROM and not a computer fangame, but I don't think anyone really agreed with this. Maybe this can be made to run not just on computers or the Genesis, but also have ports for the DC, DS, PSP, and maybe others. By ports I mean actual ports, not just emulated on different systems. (because genesis would need less colors, DS would need smaller screen, etc etc...) I'm no programmer, so I really don't know if something like the E02 engine can even be ported in the first place.

It depends on the system. But one thing the project managers need to understand about E02 is that it only runs natively Windows and DOS, and as with all other aspects of the program, you're going to have to accept that what you see is what you get. If you gamble on anything else, it's yours to lose. A system like E02 is processor-intense; the DS just doesn't have the raw processing power, among other issues. Anything else isn't a promise I can make, on top of the fact that I don't even have the equipment to develop ports for ANY other system, and am not willing to have it done by someone else

As far as developing for the Genesis itself goes, it would certainly be more "genuine" that way. That depends on just how "updated" you want to get, though, which is something that doesn't seem to have been made clear enough

View PostRika Chou, on Nov 18 2008, 02:52 PM, said:

Personally, I really have no idea what the genesis or the E02 engine can really do. I think we really need whoever is in charge of this project (who is it now? I'm not even sure...) to discuss this with a programmer, then make some basic guide lines that everyone can follow. Though I don't think we have anyone on board who is actually a programmer and also willing to do a lot of work yet. Right now, I'm just worried about the graphics...because that is the only thing that I have any skill at.

I saw Phoebius hanging around last night, and I expected that he'd have something to say about it, or maybe BJCharles. Asside from those two, you're the only other person that had appeared to me to be in any sort of position of leadership with the project, so I wouldn't know if there'd be anyone else I'd need to give a kick in the ass to to get any of this sorted out. It was kind of annoying to see some of the other threads being posted to without getting a response, since this really has alot to do with the kind of content that should be suggested/accepted

#59 User is offline Mobiethian 

Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:07 PM

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View PostStealth, on Nov 18 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

It was kind of annoying to see some of the other threads being posted to without getting a response, since this really has alot to do with the kind of content that should be suggested/accepted


I agree with you there. I am sick of contributing and getting no response/feedback. My most recent post today being neglected really pissed me off, and made me wonder how we're going to get this project finished without everybody's efforts.. and feedback does make a lot of difference!

As for the programming, I have no clue who wants to take that on, but I know there's likely to be some talented programmers registered on this forum! The only few that I know of are involved in other projects.

#60 User is offline jman2050 

Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:31 PM

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You need to find people that will be able to focus on this project. As with the whole nonsense in Sonic 2 HD, it's not feasible to just have a system where anybody can just randomly contribute to the project at their whim. There needs to be focus, there needs to be leadership, and there has to be clearly defined roles for people who are willing to put a substantial amount of time and effort into it. Rika, despite my misgivings about him quitting a quality project, seems to be the type of person that would contribute greatly to this project's success. I'm still skeptical of this project as a whole, much like I was when it was organized in a questionable fashion and called Sonic 4. But if BJ and the others really do organize this well then I think a quality product can be made, as I've seen some very good ideas being thrown around. Until then though, that's all they are: ideas. And believe me, I have plenty of those

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