[Kreigyr]

iLike80sRock, on 22 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

I'm not saying that I dislike the fact that it makes you think. There are just sections of this game that are flat out ridiculous in difficulty and just don't feel like a Sonic game. It wouldn't bother me at all if there weren't perfect examples of the game being great at combining the two (Planet Wisp Act 3 and 4 are the ones that really come to mind for me). When I play Starlight Carnival (and to a lesser extent Asteroid Coaster) after playing the more put-together Planet Wisp, it really aggravates me because they're so much more blocky and just generally feel less Sonic-y in my opinion. They just don't flow like the game should, especially the "moving bumpers" and that one Starlight Carnival one where if you mess up with your Green wisp you HAVE to restart.

Another thing: I don't like the way Generations did its ranking much more than I like the Colors system. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. What were '06 and Unleashed's scoring systems like?

[insert terrifically innacurate summation of Unleashed]

'06 is almost identical to Adventure 2, which I find to be a very nicely working system.

And, straight-up, Generations was far too loose. On several occasions, obviously slow runs resulted in S-ranks, and deliberately sitting around for a low rank resulted in Bs and As. Far from ideal, but if it were made a bit more stringent in the form of a time BONUS...

This post has been edited by Kreigyr: 23 April 2012 - 11:21 AM

[corneliab]

Kreigyr, on 22 April 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Unleashed:

Did you go fast?

Yes: S

No: E

You seem to be confused. He was asking about Sonic Unleashed. Not Sonic Unleashed: Neutered Edition.

Sonic Unleashed (360/PS3)'s ranking system placed a lot of importance on clearing a stage with very few mistakes. Given all the rings you could collect in any level, it was invaluable to both collect and keep them. Getting hit or dying could easily screw you out of an S rank, since you could potentially lose hundreds of rings at a time. There are time bonuses to be sure, but seriously, try blazing through Rooftop Run with no regard towards obstacles and see how far that gets you.

[mitaknight]

Metal Man88, on 22 April 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Tanks, on 22 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

God. Can you imagine this topic back in the 90s? SONIC 2 RUINS THE SPEEDY GAME PLAY OF SONIC 1 LOOK AT MYSTIC CAVE ZONE. HOW DARE THEY MAKE ME THINK BEFORE I ACT.

Yeah, it's pretty clear these people aren't fans of classic Sonic. They just want barren freeways. Well, whatever they want, it's not gonna be their way. Even in the dark days of "SPEED ONLY" they threw in some non speed things.

That's not what I originally wanted to say at all. ;_;

I like skillful platforming as much as the next guy does, but just to me, Sonic Colors just felt a little slow. I don't want this thread to turn into another CALSIC vs MODARN argument.

This post has been edited by mitaknight: 23 April 2012 - 12:20 AM

[RhinestoneCircuit]

iLike80sRock, on 22 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Another thing: I don't like the way Generations did its ranking much more than I like the Colors system. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. What were '06 and Unleashed's scoring systems like?

Score based, Generations was time and ring based. Although in generations you only get a perfect ranking by not dying, if not you'll always be one rank lower. 06, for actions stages the highest rank was achieved if your total score was 50,000 (100,000 for very hard mode). For bosses and some town missions the best ranking was achieved by obtaining 30,000 points.

For unleashed I believe it was 150,000 but I'm unsure about bosses or how it's ranking worked overall.

[Tyty]

Tanks, on 22 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

God. Can you imagine this topic back in the 90s? SONIC 2 RUINS THE SPEEDY GAME PLAY OF SONIC 1 LOOK AT MYSTIC CAVE ZONE. HOW DARE THEY MAKE ME THINK BEFORE I ACT.

You sir are stupid.

If anythign Sonic 2 is TOO FAST. LOOK AT CHEMICAL PLANT MY GOD.

I am hyped for sonic cd though. It totally looks like yu gotta explore everything if you want to do good, and those backwards springs are awesome and don't mess up flow. Sonic is totally a platformer first and speed second.

No but seriously, Sonic games have always (except 06, because that's barely a game.) rewarded the player for being stylish, and using their speed well. That's why there's a time bonus to begin with. If you weren't fast you didn't get a high score, but also, if you weren't good you didn't get a high score. Rings and killing enemies were just as important for getting a good score. That's also why the perfect bonus exists. Even Sonic CD, which I honestly dislike, rewarded the player for speed. It showed speed down to the millisecond, and had a time bonus. Even if it was about exploring(terribly crafted levels with absolutely no flow) it was about doing it fast, because Sonic is fast. That's what makes him cool. That's why he can run so fast he travels through time.

That's why in SA2 you get points for light dashing.

That's why in Sonic Heroes there's a speed character.

It feels good to go fast through a level and it feels better to do it well at the same time. I think colors and generations managed to catch this well, and even unleashed did. Once you get to know the werehog, even his levels can be pretty fast... Well, except Eggmanland, but still. Most of them are the length of non-glitched runs of Rooftop Run. That's pretty crazy. Not to mention the daytime levels. Sure, there's a HUGE speed bonus, but have you noticed that the fastest speedruns don't get S ranks because they still skip enemies and don't get as many rings? Yeah.

I think colors felt slow mostly because you usually had to stop and think while playing, and because the boost isn't as fast. Sonic's top running speed without boost is about the same in Generations, so really, that's about it. If you're good at air boosts and stomps, you can do the platform-heavy levels fast.

[Falk]

corneliab, on 22 April 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Kreigyr, on 22 April 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Unleashed:

Did you go fast?

Yes: S

No: E

You seem to be confused. He was asking about Sonic Unleashed. Not Sonic Unleashed: Neutered Edition.

Sonic Unleashed (360/PS3)'s ranking system placed a lot of importance on clearing a stage with very few mistakes. Given all the rings you could collect in any level, it was invaluable to both collect and keep them. Getting hit or dying could easily screw you out of an S rank, since you could potentially lose hundreds of rings at a time. There are time bonuses to be sure, but seriously, try blazing through Rooftop Run with no regard towards obstacles and see how far that gets you.

The only level where you can really get hit (once) and still get an S would be Jungle Joyride, unless it's like in the first 1/8 or so. Unleashed day stages were actually surprisingly well-tuned for what they attempted to be (a showcase of hedgehog engine/GOTTAGOFAST)

[Nova]

Unleashed does not focus on speed for S ranks, heck, in some cases it almost completely ignores it.



I've got to say, these arguments over the best scoring system are pointless. I'm a speedrunner first and foremost, so I like the games to be S-rankable by going really fast. Some people prefer a bit of exploration and like getting S-ranks by taking a steady pace through the level and destroying all the badniks. Not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time.

[Falk]

Nova, on 23 April 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Unleashed does not focus on speed for S ranks, heck, in some cases it almost completely ignores it.

Relevant.

[Dark Sonic]

Falk, on 23 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Unleashed: "4 seconds? Clearly you aren't skilled enough."

I say games should be ranked by both. It should award the super speedy but also those that but style and exploration into their gameplay. Just make the time score bonus decrease much faster and bring back those award bonus points from SA2. That way time can get you an S rank, but it's not the only way.

[dsrb]

NINJA EDIT to make on-topic:

The presence of actual platforming and a more developed dynamic to achieving ranks (something I get a kick out of from NiGHTS, although JoD seems to have made it waaay too easy, at least to the point that I reached) has actually spiked my interest in Colours exponentially just since reading this thread. I need to be introduced to the modern series some time right? I have a Wii, so there's not much excuse.

Back to your regularly scheduled pedantry

synchronizer, on 22 April 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Also...

Spoiler

http://www.perfectyo...ge/not-only.htm

Please forgive me, but I've noticed many errors pertaining to the above. It's not personal, and I'm not perfect either.

The great thing is that that article expressly permits several types of usage that would be dismissed by more technically accurate writers (not that I claim to be much of one!). Cases:

Quote

The place was not only good, but also safe. [the comma is unnecessary]

Mid position with verb is also possible.
She not only speaks English, but also French. [NO, THIS IS BULLSHIT, WHAT ARE YOU D—— This should be She speaks not only English but also French.]

Not only was she sad, she was also angry. [comma splice fail]
They not only need food, but also shelter. [Again: bullshit. This should be They need not only food but also shelter.

Yeah, this article is balls.

Simple rule: the objects or phrases that follow each of not only and but also should be balanced; that is, one should be able not only to swap them without introducing grammatical errors or other oddities but also to remove the former, replace the latter with and, and retain the validity and grammatical structure of the sentence.

Trash this if you must, but at least it might get read by at least one person either way. I can't believe that article is being taken as advice by anyone!

This post has been edited by dsrb: 23 April 2012 - 02:54 PM