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The spindash was a mistake

#61 User is offline The Growler 

Posted 01 February 2019 - 11:53 AM

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Just as a quick theory here, but I'm wondering if the spindash is partially a space-saving device for levels, if you get my meaning.

As in, since it may require a run up to get over a loop-de-loop, that would take space up for adding other hazards and items to the level - which would make getting around the loops more tricky had there been another way to go over them. So maybe the spindash enabled the developers to add more stuff to levels - and to enable more interesting terrain (as what BounceDeLemos stated) - all the while having larger levels as well. However, that's probably more likely why springs and boost pads etc. were positioned just before loops in later games which took out the need for the spindash; to the point where it's become almost like an interactive movie.

It'a not the spindash I have a problem with, but the boost pads and automatic sections which are what's ruining the modern games - as we very well know (ignoring Sonic's own Boost mechanic - which many/some people like).
This post has been edited by The Growler: 01 February 2019 - 11:57 AM

#62 User is offline Nova 

Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:19 PM

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I don't really see how the spindash could be called a mistake, personally. The levels are designed around having it (as The Growler pointed out just above me) and it serves as just another part of your toolkit for getting through a level quickly. Spindashing through an entire level is nowhere near an optimal strategy, it just stops that flow being lost for too long - and if you're trash at the game, it's not exactly the crutch that you describe it as.

In fact, one reason I actually quite like the Boost-style gameplay is that when done right, that boost move has to not only be utilized, but utilized thoughtfully. It's a trade-off; you make Sonic far harder to control and increase his stopping distance, but you get near-instant maximum speed. The spindash, in my eyes, serves a very similar function. It gives you really quick, on-demand speed but with a trade-off - in the case of the spindash, speed drop-off on a flat as well as actually having to stop to use the move. I'd argue that watching a half-decent player use either and comparing them to someone actually really competent at the games is evidence of this.

#63 User is offline MarkeyJester 

Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:21 PM

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View PostThe Growler, on 01 February 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Just as a quick theory here, but I'm wondering if the spindash is partially a space-saving device for levels, if you get my meaning.

That's an interesting point, I hadn't thought about layout space being a plausible reason...

I would throw in the argument that horizontal springs up against a rock would suffice, but there are other implications to that. Likewise, you didn't really see that often in Sonic 1, nine times out of ten it was a hill or long stretch of land. To add to this, eight out of eleven of the levels in Sonic 2 have layouts that would normally require the space but don't thanks to the spindash (i.e. loops, half loops, up-ramps, etc) as opposed to Sonic 1 where I believe only two (maybe three) of the six actually had looping/hill situations that required the space. I think it's a solid possibility that as they made more use of the loops they started to struggle to fit them in without an easy means of getting through them.

#64 User is offline JamesRock7 

Posted 01 February 2019 - 01:54 PM

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View PostPalas, on 01 February 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

View PostPowpuck, on 31 January 2019 - 09:36 PM, said:

The ring cost occurred to me once, too, but that would be disproportionate to the unskilled player that wouldn't typically have many rings even if they weren't de facto health, whereas the skilled player would not be really all that affected. At the crux of it, it's the skilled player who's looking for that "catch" to keep things interesting.

The "noob" won't mind inasmuch as it will let them get through the game they spent money on (a fair enough thing). If they want to aspire to ADGQ, that's entirely on them to see a boon for the limiting crutch that it is (or ought to be).

Or maybe factor in the grading system from more recent games where use of "OP" abilities will cause deductions in the players grade. Again something that only completionists and competitive types will actually give a hoot about.

View PostNaean, on 28 November 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Something that I think is worth exploring in a Sonic game is the idea of non-spindash areas in level design, inspired by the 'no-chanting-allowed' robots in Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee. You could first introduce the player to a gimmick that is easily passable using the Spin Dash, and then later in the game, present the same gimmick but with the Spin Dash ability temporarily revoked, which may encourage the player to think just that little bit more on how to utilise 'raw' momentum in order to pass the gimmick. (If they don't wish to try passing said gimmick, they should be able to take a different and less challenging route, but they may miss out on some Shield power-ups or a Giant Ring as a result.)


What this calls to mind are those spherical enemies from Metroid that home in on Samus when she charges her beam weapon; I can easily see a badnik that'd do likewise to Sonic.

Or maybe something with the terrain, such as soft soil/sand/snow whereupon spindashing will embed Sonic into the ground the longer he revs up. Or perhaps a flinty surface that'd spark and thereby set off explosives that harm Sonic.


I'm on board with this. I especially like it if you CAN use the spindash, but it hurts you. I don't like arbitrarily taking abilities away from Sonic. And I don't like stuff made for one kind of player either - either it's in everyone's experience in one way or another or it shouldn't be there at all. So missing out on something trivial, but so many ties that it actually affects your survivability, is much better than deducting from grading systems or whatever.

Let's remember: it's okay to die and make different decisions because of it.

ttl
Maybe it could exists a "Hard Mode" where there is no spindash or it hurts you for experienced players, or giving a special reward if you don't use it. I recall a MegaMan Battle Network 4 and 5 where the use of a Dark Chip has consequences, and alters the way the game is played.

#65 User is offline Hez 

Posted 20 February 2019 - 03:55 PM

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View PostJamesRock7, on 01 February 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostPalas, on 01 February 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

View PostPowpuck, on 31 January 2019 - 09:36 PM, said:

The ring cost occurred to me once, too, but that would be disproportionate to the unskilled player that wouldn't typically have many rings even if they weren't de facto health, whereas the skilled player would not be really all that affected. At the crux of it, it's the skilled player who's looking for that "catch" to keep things interesting.

The "noob" won't mind inasmuch as it will let them get through the game they spent money on (a fair enough thing). If they want to aspire to ADGQ, that's entirely on them to see a boon for the limiting crutch that it is (or ought to be).

Or maybe factor in the grading system from more recent games where use of "OP" abilities will cause deductions in the players grade. Again something that only completionists and competitive types will actually give a hoot about.

View PostNaean, on 28 November 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Something that I think is worth exploring in a Sonic game is the idea of non-spindash areas in level design, inspired by the 'no-chanting-allowed' robots in Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee. You could first introduce the player to a gimmick that is easily passable using the Spin Dash, and then later in the game, present the same gimmick but with the Spin Dash ability temporarily revoked, which may encourage the player to think just that little bit more on how to utilise 'raw' momentum in order to pass the gimmick. (If they don't wish to try passing said gimmick, they should be able to take a different and less challenging route, but they may miss out on some Shield power-ups or a Giant Ring as a result.)


What this calls to mind are those spherical enemies from Metroid that home in on Samus when she charges her beam weapon; I can easily see a badnik that'd do likewise to Sonic.

Or maybe something with the terrain, such as soft soil/sand/snow whereupon spindashing will embed Sonic into the ground the longer he revs up. Or perhaps a flinty surface that'd spark and thereby set off explosives that harm Sonic.


I'm on board with this. I especially like it if you CAN use the spindash, but it hurts you. I don't like arbitrarily taking abilities away from Sonic. And I don't like stuff made for one kind of player either - either it's in everyone's experience in one way or another or it shouldn't be there at all. So missing out on something trivial, but so many ties that it actually affects your survivability, is much better than deducting from grading systems or whatever.

Let's remember: it's okay to die and make different decisions because of it.

ttl
Maybe it could exists a "Hard Mode" where there is no spindash or it hurts you for experienced players, or giving a special reward if you don't use it. I recall a MegaMan Battle Network 4 and 5 where the use of a Dark Chip has consequences, and alters the way the game is played.


Or maybe like Sonic CD's spindash? It almost had the right idea. It was a pain in the ass to use and almost worthless unless in particular situations.

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