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Sonic 1 prototype Video (FAKE) This one had some of us going for awhile....

#211 User is offline Afti 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:06 AM

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View PostSkyler, on 08 February 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

General Sonic Discussion is viewable by anyone. Why would s/he create an account to see our reactions when they're already visible?


Were I the hoaxster, I'd make an account just for the sake of the amusement it'd bring- OWNER OF BETAA IS ON FORUM, etc.

There is no compelling evidence for this being real and a boatload against.

#212 User is offline Mester Keel98 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:26 AM

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It's really easy to hook up an older laptop to a CRT TV and run user-created content like that. Both videos show tearing on the TV (but not around it), a sign that there might be something running via PC rather than the camera being bad. My laptop tended to do this when running anything full-screen. Just saying.

#213 User is offline Hez 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:13 PM

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You know what gives this away more than anything. He has white stripes on his shoes

#214 User is offline FuzzballFox 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:41 PM

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View PostHez, on 08 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

You know what gives this away more than anything. He has white stripes on his shoes

Blasphemy!

#215 User is offline Lapper 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:41 PM

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View PostHez, on 08 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

You know what gives this away more than anything. He has white stripes on his shoes

But.... he has a stripe on his shoe here:
Posted Image

#216 User is offline Vaiyt 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:41 PM

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View Postsaxman, on 07 February 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

This person is laughing at everyone right now.

Who's that "everyone" you're talking about, pale-face?

In general, the tone has been of skepticism. No "OMG DO WANT DO WANT". Nobody hailing this guy as the new saint of Sonic history. Most knowledgeable people are saying it's a fake. Really, some people are unsure on whether it's true or not, but we haven't even had a flame war yet. As far as trolling goes, this isn't particularly sucessful.

#217 User is offline saxman 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:44 PM

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View PostVaiyt, on 08 February 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Postsaxman, on 07 February 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

This person is laughing at everyone right now.

Who's that "everyone" you're talking about, pale-face?

In general, the tone has been of skepticism. No "OMG DO WANT DO WANT". Nobody hailing this guy as the new saint of Sonic history. Most knowledgeable people are saying it's a fake. Really, some people are unsure on whether it's true or not, but we haven't even had a flame war yet. As far as trolling goes, this isn't particularly sucessful.

He tricked Yugi Naka. How is he not successful? As long as people are around to consider that it "might" be real, he has a reason to keep this going. He has gotten an enormous amount of attention for this. He successfully trolled the Sonic scene.

And I have no idea what pale-face means.

#218 User is offline Hez 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:48 PM

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View PostSonica, on 08 February 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostHez, on 08 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

You know what gives this away more than anything. He has white stripes on his shoes

But.... he has a stripe on his shoe here:
Posted Image

Never saw that clear of a picture....touche

#219 User is offline dsrb 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:50 PM

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View Postsaxman, on 08 February 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

View PostVaiyt, on 08 February 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Postsaxman, on 07 February 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

This person is laughing at everyone right now.
Who's that "everyone" you're talking about, pale-face?
[…]
[…]
I have no idea what pale-face means.

Paleface is an American Indian term for white settlers. I guess he's referring to the thing where the Lone Ranger and Tonto get surrounded by Indians; the Lone Ranger says ‘We're done for!’; and Tonto, himself an Indian, says ‘Who's this “we” you're talking about, paleface?’. The point, I guess, is that you conjured up some amorphous “everyone” and then basically completely assumed what they're doing based upon your own interpretation.
This post has been edited by dsrb: 08 February 2012 - 02:54 PM

#220 User is offline Endri 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 03:01 PM

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@flamewing:
Hmm, I see.

View Postflamewing, on 08 February 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

View PostEndri, on 07 February 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Uh, not quite, and I will show why:

Indeed, Sonic only overlaps because his collision ray is smaller than his sprite.

I will concede that if you keep pushing in the direction of terrain in the final game, you can clip the edge as you describe. But there are a number of wrong things with this argument: first, you assume that he kept pressing the directional in the video, pushing to towards the ledge; there is no evidence that this is the case. If you deny this assumption, your point crumbles when you increase the size of the collision box as I described.

I believe that first and foremost, you may need to ask yourself the following question: What is one player more likely to do when jumping an obstacle or wall, or trying to reach a higher platform in a 'platforming' genre of game? a)Keep pressing in the direction s/he wants the character to move and jump, or b)jump and then press the buttom to move the video game character, only when the character is already on air? If the second alternative is selected, be wary that, after the jump button is pressed, there is only so much reaction time for the player to press a directional buttom before the vertical speed is reversed (going downwards), rendering the video game character less likely to succefully overtake the obstacle/wall, or land on the higher platform. It's not quantum logics here; it's common sense. This is a behaviour of human nature, especially in video game players. I'll conceed you that, in the event of the player on the video not keeping the directional buttom pressed as s/he jumped, then your theory would indeed work. However, as long as common sense is concerned, the chances are pretty slim. It doesn't help the fact that in the lastest video, the player completly avoided direct contact with the wall. Perhaps they read the technicall notes writen by Saxman, ICE Knight, Sik, Rika Chou, Taxman and me, or was that just coincidence?

View Postflamewing, on 08 February 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Second, you seem to be under the mistaken impression* that the collision routines used when Sonic is in the air are the same as when he is on the ground; they aren't. In the Hg disassembly, the function 'Sonic_AnglePos' is used while Sonic is on the ground, while the epically misnamed 'Sonic_Floor' function is used while on air.

I can't conceive how you got this wrong impression from me. I have full knowledge on how the collision routines works in Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, Knuckles, and Chaotix. And kill me if I don't; Irrelevantly, I spend this Summer (Summer for us, Winter in North America) porting Knuckles' Chaotix—because there are no 32X emulators for any other platform other than computers, and Knuckles' Chaotix is, ironically, my favorite Sonic game on the Mega Drive. I've been using andlabs' SVN disassembly, but it is still heavily undocumented. But still, many undocumented routines have equivalent subroutines in Sonic 1, 2, and 3K, so I ended up technically porting Sonic 2 instead, and replicating when necessary the Knuckles' Chaotix routines. I am annoyingly perfectionist, and I am confident enough to say that I am fully aware of how the collision routines work, and if they aren't frame-by-frame, 1:1 with the originals. After all, I am the physics bitch of this community!

View Postflamewing, on 08 February 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Third, you seem to be mistakenly assuming* that two sensor rays would mount an insurmountable programming obstacle; they don't: 'Sonic_AnglePos' uses two sensor rays for collision with terrain, and the sensor rays are dependent on the ground angle (one ray is used for the "front" of the sprite and one for the "back") and easily does what you claim is 'a hell lot of programming to solve it'. Similarly, 'Sonic_Floor' uses two sensor rays for ceilings and floors, but only one for walls.

Your argument doesn't comply with what I said: you are saying that the two sensors rays used to detect floor (and both floor and ceil when or air, and to check if Sonic should jump or not while on the ground in the event of a low ceil right above Sonic) "easily does" what I claim "a hell lot of programming to solve". However, these sensor rays you speak about are vertical rays. Read again what I said:

View PostEndri, on 07 February 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

two horizontal rays would be required: one at the extreme top and another at the extreme bottom. But then the bottom ray would start to detect collisions with short steps and slopes (something that it shouldn't)
The vertical sensor rays detect the angle of the collision array and the height Sonic should be set. The horizontal sensor ray, however, is what is used to "push Sonic off from a wall and set Sonic speed to 0". And this is exactly what it does. Now, experiment with this: add 19 to the position of the horizontal ray in any of the Mega Drive Sonic games instead of 4, and see what happens—Sonic will be pushing against the first grass bump in Green Hill Zone. Of course, my example was about using two rays both in "horizontal collision mode" and "vertical collision mode" while on ground as much as while on air. Of course, you win because if the two horizontal rays are only used while Sonic is on air, then everything would behave as you described.

View Postflamewing, on 08 February 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Fourth, you are assuming that a prototype would have the same collision routines as the final product; regardless of whether or not this is the real deal, that assumption is wrong: Sonic Team could have very easily used two rays for aerial collision with walls in an early tech demo (seeing as every other collision uses two sensor rays, even in the aerial collision routines) but then changed it (possibly in response to feedback, or after further testing) to be less unforgiving of tiny collisions with terrain. The point is we just don't know enough about the real prototype to rule this out.

Our friend 'common sense' applies in this case here as well; it is a common good programming practice to plan ahead the design decisions and the paths you'll be using in order to reach them before actually sitting down to write the code, because developers have a set deadline to have X feature read at X point. There is simply no time to write an entire code from scratch, only to reach middle development and say "damn that, will rewrite the entire base engine". More on that, if you care to research old articles and interviews with Yuji Naka (don't have the time to check for the sources myself right now), you'll notice that he explained that by the point of the tech demo, the entire base engine for the game was ready, and they only needed to tweak, remove or add things by demand when necessary. Also, if you watch the Sonic Generations documentary, will see Yuji Naka coding what appears to be a very early version of Sonic in Assembly—the 'Sonic_Move' subroutine is highlighted. Now compare the 'Sonic_Move' subroutine from back then to the equivalent subroutine on the disassembly of the final version of Sonic 1. Barely andthing was changed, if at all.

Conclusion: you are right about using two horizontal sensor rays only while on air; it would give the "MMF" effect. BUT I think this is a stretch. Then again, we can't rule out any possiblity—Quantum Mechanics in effect for unknown past events.

#221 User is offline ookamikaze 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 03:12 PM

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Hello! About this supposed "Sonic 1 proto 1990", I found on Youtube, a video in which this prototype appears with new pics of Green Hill in an edition of japanese magazine"BEEP! Megadrive"(August 1990).


Let's Browse: BEEP! Mega Drive Magazine Aug 1990



The images of "Sonic 1 proto" appears from 8min 25s.

#222 User is offline Endri 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 03:26 PM

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Why, hello there!

Now this is interesting. The title screen picture is the one we have (black backgroung). I can't make out the other two, however. But they seem to be different?

#223 User is offline ashthedragon 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 03:28 PM

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Ok...we NEED that magazine. I've asked the uploader for scans.
This post has been edited by ashthedragon: 08 February 2012 - 03:37 PM

#224 User is offline Master Emerald 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 03:45 PM

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Posted Image

Holy SHIT new screens!

#225 User is offline saxman 

Posted 08 February 2012 - 03:50 PM

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View Postookamikaze, on 08 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Hello! About this supposed "Sonic 1 proto 1990", I found on Youtube, a video in which this prototype appears with new pics of Green Hill in an edition of japanese magazine"BEEP! Megadrive"(August 1990).


Let's Browse: BEEP! Mega Drive Magazine Aug 1990



The images of "Sonic 1 proto" appears from 8min 25s.

Oh WOW! Comparing the images, those pictures are definitely different. I hope that guy scans that magazine!

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